Talk:Terry A. Davis

"Created and designed an entire OS by himself"

This keeps getting taken out of the opening sentence so I'm just going to quote guidelines from MOS:LEAD, WP:PEACOCK, and WP:EXPLAINLEAD:

• The first sentence should tell the nonspecialist reader what, or who, the subject is ... For topics notable for only one reason, this reason should usually be given in the first sentence. For example: "Amalie Emmy Noether [ˈnøːtɐ] (23 March 1882 – 14 April 1935) was a German mathematician known for her groundbreaking contributions to abstract algebra and her contributions to theoretical physics."

• Just the facts: "Dylan was included in Time's 100: The Most Important People of the Century, in which he was called "master poet, caustic social critic and intrepid, guiding spirit of the counterculture generation". By the mid-1970s, his songs had been covered by hundreds of other artists."

• The lead of the article should tell a general reader the field of study of the topic, the place the topic holds in its field of study, what (if anything) the topic is good for, and what needs to be learned first in order to understand the article.

The significance of Davis designing the entire OS alone is discussed in a number of the sources.

• Cecil said she “didn’t appreciate what his accomplishment was until this guy from Australia called — John McColl. He likened it to one person building a skyscraper by themselves. That was a way for me as a layperson to appreciate his accomplishment… (source)

• He said it was “kind of hard for a lay person to understand what a phenomenal achievement” it is to write an entire operating system singlehandedly. “It actually boggles my mind that one man wrote all that.” He compared it to construction, saying a man could build a house by himself, but this was “like building a skyscraper by yourself.” (source)

Ilovetopaint (talk) 13:33, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

I'm seeing the same name pop up in both sources -- John McColl, but I can't find anything about him on google. For that reason, the "one computer engineer" sentence and wording like "entire X by himself" stuff seems like undue weight. The second thing that worries me is that I'm not seeing other sources that have acknowledged specifically how hard it is to create your own OS. If we look away from those two articles, do any of the others talk about the significance of him building it alone? The article "God's lonely programmer" mentions how many lines of code and the time he's worked on it, but other than comparing the number of lines of code to what's in Windows 7, it doesn't seem to touch on how or why him creating it all by himself is notable. Eik Corell (talk) 15:05, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Would "an American programmer who created and designed the TempleOS operating system by himself" be an acceptable compromise for the first sentence? — Newslinger talk 19:38, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Certainly better, but I think the same thing could be said without putting too much weight on the email mentioned in the Dallas Chronicle article. My suggestion would be "an American programmer who created and designed the TempleOS operating system". That way, his central role in development is still underscored, but without the seemingly unwarranted focus on the significance of him actually being the sole developer. Eik Corell (talk) 18:09, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

These edits miss the point. Readers cannot infer from those wordings that he built the OS from scratch. As in, every single component including the coding language. Most laymen would assume that the OS was "designed" by Davis, sure, but by plundering some of its components from elsewhere. He didn't, as far as I know, and that's what's unique about his accomplishment. I'm not an expert so I can't say for sure if Davis really "built a skyscraper". But if he did, then for the sake of nonspecialists such as myself, the extraordinary quality of this undertaking must be explained clearly from the get-go. Ilovetopaint (talk) 12:10, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm a little concerned about the stability of the article (which is a good article criterion), and I've temporarily withdrawn the good article nomination until this is definitively resolved. Would any editors here be interested in a request for comment or dispute resolution noticeboard case to determine how Davis's role in TempleOS should be described in the lead section? — Newslinger talk 00:41, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

• I've reworded so that it's simply described as a "complex and unusual undertaking for one person". ILTP (talk) 00:14, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

  If the others are okay with it, then it looks fine to me. The image copyright issues are also holding me back from renominating, but I am not familiar enough with the TempleOS website archive to be of much use there. — Newslinger talk 13:22, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Is it correct to give this guy any wikipedia attention for being a schizophrenic who wrote a long but useless spaghetti code of a program, even if he died prematurely at a young age? I know others who have done far more and without any recognition on this website. I don't mean to fully discredit his computer program or his skills or motive, others can do that, what I do mean is: can we use this as precedent to start writing wikipedia articles for anyone who thinks his github project is important ... or should we only include those who did it during a mental breakdown while living with mom and dad on the government dime? My sarcasm is intentional and not personal, but is this really the forum? A793b4 (talk) 19:12, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

That's not relevant here. Regardless of what you think, Davis and his operating system have been covered by an extensive amount of sources, and both him and the OS are notable enough to be covered by Wikipedia. If you think there are other people that are more notable, feel free to create an article about them. The difference between this and some unknown GitHub project is that TempleOS has a legitimate impact, just like Windows or MacOS. PeterPrettyCool (talk) 00:16, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This review is transcluded from Talk:Terry A. Davis/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: OpalYosutebito (talk · contribs) 14:46, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Rjjiii (talk · contribs) 01:36, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

I'm going to start reviewing this soon. I'll check sources first. Let me know if there is anything specifically that you'd like feedback on, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 01:36, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

2a: There are pseudo headings for "Notes" and "Citations". The easiest fix would be making them into real headings, but you only have one footnote under "Notes". I think the article would flow better if that footnote was worked into the actual body text. This would also fix the pseudo headings by getting rid of the separate sections, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 01:43, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Finished 2a - OpalYosutebito (talk) 17:20, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

Checking sources

2b, (footnote numbers as of 17 January 2025):

• fn2 Hadn't heard of the source before but they seem legit and have editorial oversight so they should pass WP:RS.
  • fn2a: I don't see this in the source. I see one person express similar sentiments. Also, depending on how one reads support, the source says something nearly the opposite. It talks about his fans attempting to support him when he was homeless, but Terry refuses them.
  • fn2b: This verifies everything but his parents living in Las Vegas.
  • fn2k: Verified, no OR, no CLOP
• fn3
  • fn3m: The language is too similar to the source (WP:CLOP). "sought to emulate Jesus by giving away all his possessions" is very similar to "sought to emulate Jesus by giving away all his belongings" The rest is fine and the quote is correctly attributed.
  • fn3n: The language is too similar to the source (WP:CLOP). "Dremel tool nearly set his apartment on fire, he abandoned the idea." is very similar to "Dremel tool nearly set his apartment on fire, which caused him to abandon the idea." The facts are fine, just reword it.
  • fn3o: This has the Las Vegas bit from fn2b above. Looks good.
  • fn3p: I don't know the best way to phrase this, but as the source was written in 2014, it can only comment on the period between 2003 and 2014.
• fn4 I checked this because of the "blog" in the URL, but James Sanders is a staff writer doing a column, so this should meet WP:V. Either switch to a working URL or remove "| url-status = live" so that it links to the archived version. Footnote 8 is the same footnote, you could reuse this named reference here (this suggestion is not required for GA, just feedback).
  • fn4a: I don't see "as a programmer" just that he worked on VAX machines. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 02:39, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
  • fn4b: Verified, no OR, no CLOP. What an odd piece of software, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 02:39, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

    I did 3n and 3p - OpalYosutebito (talk) 15:38, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

  • fn4c: Verified, no OR, no CLOP. I think the quote's purpose would be more clear if you added |source="After Egypt" but that's not required.
• fn8: Verified, is the spelling in TempleOS "Holy C" or "HolyC" without the space?
• fn9: The citation should probably list Terry Davis as the author, they are just reprinting a quote from him, right?
• fn14f Verified.
• fn17 Verified. Not required for GA, but consider unlinking wiktionary. It seems to say no more than what's already in this article.

There are some small issues here, but nothing major, let me know when you've gone through them Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 02:39, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

You might need to update the footnotes (or add what sentence it came from), since I arranged some sentences around after you wrote them... - OpalYosutebito (talk) 02:32, 2 February 2025 (UTC)

Hi OpalYosutebito, I'm on my mobile account while I pack and repair my laptop. If you click that "as of" date above (7 January 2025) it'll link to the older version of the article where the numbers match. Or, if you click the footnote links (fnX), they will point to the URL of the source. This is the least confusing way I found that I have found. Rjjiii (ii) (talk) 04:08, 2 February 2025 (UTC)

Thanks! I already finished fn2, as well as just about everything else in the sources section (aside from fn3) - OpalYosutebito (talk) 00:38, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

Checking and crossing off most of the notes, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 01:15, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

I did 4c and 8 already. Idk what to do for 4b... - OpalYosutebito (talk) 04:45, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

4b was good. For a GA review, when someone does spot checks, it's expected to make a note of each citation checked even if they check out fine. To avoid additional confusion, I've crossed out all of the ones that had no issues. Sorry about that, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 06:30, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

It's ok! You're just doing your job! - OpalYosutebito (talk) 13:55, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

Checking images

He released his operating system to the public domain and at some point released everything on his operating system's website to the public domain.[1] The photos of him are all correctly tagged photos from his site. They're all appropriate. All but one caption looks good:

Try something more direct instead of this caption, "Davis with a computer monitor, c. mid-1980s". "Davis in the 1980s" would be enough.

Alt text isn't required for GA, but I'd suggest adding it at leat for File:VirtualBox TempleOS x64 27 02 2021 20 43 48.png. When there is no alt text, a screen reader will read aloud the file name which in this case is just a string of numbers. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 02:49, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Fixed/clarified the captions - OpalYosutebito (talk) 16:46, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

Looks good, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 01:17, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

Checking WP:NPOV

• Is there more context on the "rocket scientist" quote; it is not exactly clear what he's getting at.
• Do the sources give any more details on his education/background or on his attempt to start the 3D printing venture?
• If we're calling the beliefs delusions in Wikipedia's voice, do the cited sources call them delusions?
• The Temple OS section starts out with fine-grained details about the name and technical influences. Try starting the section with a short broad overview of what the operating systems is.
• Regarding "Holy C" and an "original programming language, editor, [and] compiler". Do the sources say more on this? Temple OS on its own is fascinating and I see it getting credit as outsider art. Making his own compiler and programming language also sound pretty significant.
  • The final two lines of this paragraph could be revised to make clear what "This" and "It" are. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 01:42, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

  Fixed them - OpalYosutebito (talk) 19:13, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

• There are two paragraphs sourced to Davis and heavy with quotes. Can either of these be sourced to secondary sources, and also could they restate more of the important points in Wikipedia's voice:
  • "In 2005, Davis stated [...]"
  • "In 2012, Davis stated [...]"
• In "Recognition, controversy and following" could the section start with a topic sentence to give a sort of overview.
• In the "Glowies" section, it could be more clear that these groups are adopting the term from Davis. Do the sources cover which or what type of online groups? Also, do the sources cover why they adopt the term? Is it a case of places like 4chan having an existing interest in Davis? Or is it just animosity towards the government, African Americans, or both?
• Also, I don't know if the amount of explanation from Davis about "glowies" meets WP:DUE. It looks like the Atlantic is just attributing it to his struggles with mental illness.
• Not any kind of feedback on the article here and so thus off-topic, but reading the "Death" section is tragic. Sometimes people will drown before accepting help; life is hard.

That's it for NPOV notes. OpalYosutebito, {{ping}} me, drop a message on my talk page, or email me after you go through these. Then I'll do the prose part of the review. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 05:05, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm not done, but I'm letting you know that school just started for me. I'll still try my best to do as much as I can before classes get tough (compared to last semester, this should be pretty easy lol). I've elaborated a little bit more on what TempleOS and HolyC (no space) are, alongside paraphrasing lengthy quotes (similar to what I've been doing on the Amos Yee page). - OpalYosutebito (talk) 17:07, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

OpalYosutebito, your education is obviously more important than Wikipedia. When you are done with the NPOV notes, I can go through in more detail to check mostly the prose and small issues. If school gets you too busy, let me know how you want to move forward. At that I could put the review on hold and let you come back to it whenever you do get time. I don't know if that would work well with your schedule or not, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 04:00, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

The review can be put on hold to make time for my schedule and adding more details. Thanks for being considerate! - OpalYosutebito (talk) 04:14, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

Most of the changes look good, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 01:42, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

Going through section by section

Early life and career

• Comma after Wisconsin
• The first three sentences seem disjointed. Why "later" moved? Later than what? Maybe one of the sources give a year or his age for the move? His father's occupation could probably come after "seventh of eight children".
• Do sources not say his parents' names? If we're intentionally leaving them out as a privacy concern for a nonpublic individual, I would consider adding a footnote to explain that.
• According to the obituaries published published by the funeral home, his mother died shortly after him. Do any sources talk about this? [2] not covered as noted below
• Davis' quote at the end still seems confusing. He's talking about making physics software?

Onset of illness and spiritual awakening

• If you move growing up Catholic into the early life section there is probably a more direct way to say the first line. Something like 'Davis became an atheist and described himself as a scientific materialist until experiencing what he called a "revelation from God".'
• "due to": 'for' would be more natural here
• 'In March, he had begun' what year? If 1996, consider switching this with the previous sentence. 'he had begun' could just be 'he began' if the sentences are in chronological order. One sentence has 'regular manic episodes' and the other 'reoccurring manic episodes' but just one would suffice.
• "He started donating" can just be 'He donated'.
• ', apparently in a' can be shortened to ' to'
• 'where he was then picked up by a police officer, who escorted him to the passenger's seat. Davis escaped from the patrol vehicle, breaking his collarbone in the process, and was then hospitalized.' This could be condensed down. Also 'then' is not needed.
• 'Distressed about a conversation' in the hospital? It would be more clear to include the hospitalization and broken collarbone at the start of this paragraph rather than at the end of the previous one.
• 'then admitted' just 'admitted' would be enough
• 'Regarding these developments, Davis said in a 2014 interview' this could be more direct: 'In a 2014 interview, Davis said'
• '"some glorious revelation from God."' can this be summarized in Wikipedia's voice? Just something like 'a divine revelation' would open the option to link the topic article for Davis is claiming.
• 'Reflecting on the initial episode, ' this can probably just be omitted. I think readers can infer this based on the flow of the paragraph.
• 'Afterward,' After his diagnosis? I haven't checked the sources, but it's unclear in the Wikipedia article.
• 'didn't' expand contractions for formality
• 'it was conceived by' this could be 'it was conceived of by'

Crossed off most of these as resolved, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 02:36, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

Took care of the "Reflecting" bullet - OpalYosutebito (talk) 20:35, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

I think I should be done with this section now... - OpalYosutebito (talk) 20:38, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

TempleOS

• 'This included' the expansion of this paragraph looks good, but it make "this" and "it" unclear.
• ""thousand times"" Either omit this or expand on it. If he's just saying that a 2014 home computer is more powerful than a Commodore 64, then that's true but not related Davis' work. If he's saying something about TempleOS specifically it has gone over my head.
• "LoseThos was primarily" Outside of the paragraph that gives all of the different names, it seems confusing to call it something other than "TempleOS" in the article.
• "Davis later proclaimed" when is later?
• This is completely off-topic, but Donkey Kong is excellent. I like the idea of God having a favorite video game in general. Of this omniscient being just every now and then over thousands of years watching humanity and thinking, "I can't wait till they get far enough along to do the ColecoVision."
• "In 2012, Davis stated" do we have download or installation data from any WP:RS? Also, again I think it's more clear to use the name TempleOS outside of the paragraph about renaming.

This is looking good. The top bullet should probably be clarified. I crossed out everything else, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 02:47, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

I worked on the top bullet - OpalYosutebito (talk) 15:01, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

Cool beans, this section is done, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 07:10, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

Recognition, criticism and following

• There are many possible options, but consider re-titling this section. The heading gives the impression of a controversy section, which is discouraged for NPOV (WP:STRUCTURE). I think the actual contents are fine though as it's including both positive and negative reception.
• '"coding, web surfing, or using the output from the National Institute of Standards and Technology randomness beacon to talk to God"' can this quote be rephrased in Wikipedia's voice?"
• "outsider art exhibition in Bourogne, France" this bit is fantastic. Do sources offer any context on the art world's reception to TempleOS? The BBC Radio 4 source talks a bit about outsider art, but doesn't offer this kind of context. When looking for more information I just found a couple other announcements for places that put his work on display. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 02:58, 19 February 2025 (UTC)
  • The first two bullets have been dealt with - OpalYosutebito (talk) 15:17, 20 February 2025 (UTC)
    • Crossing those off, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 07:12, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

      Also, I fixed the two bullets below this comment thread - OpalYosutebito (talk) 16:03, 22 February 2025 (UTC)

  The announcement only mentions TempleOS. It doesn't really elaborate on it... - OpalYosutebito (talk) 19:01, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

• "a one-man-built skyscraper" There are several ways to word that more directly.
• "it may be difficult for a layperson to understand how extraordinary it was to write an entire operating system alone" Yes, absolutely. Outside of difficulty it's also objectively rare, and most people that do write an OS, are doing a POSIX compliant system for educational purposes. Is there hard data on how odd the feat is? I don't see it in the sources that I've checked for the review, but if available I think that would be valuable information.

"Glowies"

• Do any secondary sources give Davis' response to the criticism for his language? It seems out of pocket to just give his explanation laying the blame on God and the British Broadcasting Corporation.
  • OpalYosutebito "The Digital Human" offers context on this. They talk about Davis' racist and homophobic remarks as a response to anger, confusion, or fear resulting from his paranoia. Here's a quote from psychologist Victoria Tischler at 12:10: "It seems unlikely that Terry was inherently a violent or racist person, but through his illness some of these antisocial behaviors became apparent and that's something really common to people with severe mental health problems." They talk about how the antisocial behaviors can have an isolating affect on people and did so for Davis. Around the 13 minute mark, they mention a plan he had to aid the impoverished in Ciudad Juárez. (They don't mention this but presumably he was unable to follow through on the idea when his own life fell apart.) Not related to glowies, but the source also covers a bit more on the outside art aspect. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 02:03, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

  Thanks! I was working on each section one by one, by the way. - OpalYosutebito (talk) 02:47, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

  Oh, gotcha. I'll check back later. Good luck! Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 02:59, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

  I added her quote in the "Glowies" section - OpalYosutebito (talk) 19:11, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

  @OpalYosutebito, I'm looking over everything and this is nearly done. I still think there is an WP:UNDUE amount of Davis' own explanation for using slurs. If it's important to get his viewpoint in his own words, it could still be shortened. Everything from "Davis explained..." to the end of the blockquote could just be replaced with In response to the criticisms of his racist language, Davis wrote, "when I fight Satan, I use the sharpest knives I can find." or whatever is the most important bit. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 17:50, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

  Fixed it - OpalYosutebito (talk) 18:01, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

  OpalYosutebito, awesome. I am going to pass this in a bit. Is there anything you had questions about it, before I close out the review? Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 18:03, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

Death

• "Local police were informed" do we know by whom?
• "organizations working to ease the pain and suffering caused by mental illness" Can this be rephrased in Wikipedia's voice?
• Do we know who still runs the website?
• Do sources say if there any notable software projects built from or inspired by TempleOS?

OpalYosutebito, I'm wrapping up with the review comments and will put it on hold. Typically, reviews are put on hold for about week. Since you mentioned your classes picking up, just contact me when you feel done going through the feedback. I don't mind if it takes a while, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 21:25, 1 February 2025 (UTC)

Hi, @Rjjiii, I'm feeling better now, and I'm ready to continue the review. Also, regarding the first bullet point for the "Death" section: according to the Newstack, it sounds like the local police were informed by people in The Dalles, the area in which Davis died. Here's the full paragraph:

Neita Cecil reported the news for The Dalles Chronicle, an Oregon newspaper for the small town of The Dalles. She told us Thursday that this turned out to be a story unlike any other. “It was pretty amazing, actually, to get a phone call, and then another phone call, and then more phone calls, and then to hear from some guy clear in Australia. It’s like, ‘Oh my god. This guy has an international following!'” People had also called her editor. They even called the local police department.

— Source

- OpalYosutebito (talk) 00:54, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

Awesome! For any questions where the sources don't give an answer, that's okay. Any Wikipedia article is constrained by what's available in WP:RS. I'll try to check back by this Tuesday, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 03:04, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

Okay. There were no sources I could find that talked about Terry's mom's death. - OpalYosutebito (talk) 01:19, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

I think I already fixed the second and third bullets in the early life sections, too. Thanks for striking things out! It helps me get my priorities straight! - OpalYosutebito (talk) 13:34, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

I just crossed those off. I tried clarify who did not name his parents. They have names; the article is just not giving them because the sources cited did not give them which may be a consideration for the family's privacy. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 01:49, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

I fixed the second "death" bullet too - OpalYosutebito (talk) 16:07, 22 February 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.