Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive116
Caucasian Albania article
[edit]| Existing remedy replaced with 1RR. Gatoclass (talk) 15:45, 4 June 2012 (UTC) |
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Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Caucasian Albania article[edit]
I would like to request an amendment to the remedy that was imposed on this article more than a year ago: [1]. I don't mind the first part of the remedy, which places the article on 1RR, but the second part I believe should be canceled. In my opinion, the sanctions imposed on Caucasian Albania clearly did not work. The situation in Caucasian Albania was in general similar to what was going on in Nagorno-Karabakh, where the new accounts waged an edit war, and which was placed on a different article level sanction: [2] The edit warring on both articles was started by User:Xebulon and his socks User:Vandorenfm and User:Gorzaim, as well as some other sock accounts. At that time Sandstein imposed a sanction that read: All editors with Armenia/Azerbaijan-related sanctions are banned from editing this article and its talk page. For the purposes of this ban, these editors are all who have at any time been the subject of remedies, blocks or other sanctions logged on the case pages WP:ARBAA or WP:ARBAA2, irrespective of whether or not these sanctions are still in force or whether they were imposed by the Arbitration Committee or by administrators. But since all long time editors in AA area were at some point under some sort of sanctions, this pretty much opened the doors for sock and meatpuppetry, since new accounts were not under any prior sanctions. The result is that the article reflects the views of the sockmaster, who was free to make any edits he wished, and established editors could not remove even unreferenced WP:OR claims. At the moment I cannot remove even obvious WP:OR statements introduced by the banned user: [3] Note that the line "Whether Arranian is related to Caucasian Albanian languages cannot be determined" is not supported by any source and contradicts the sources quoted in the article, but I had to roll myself back due to sanctions: [4] This is why the article about Caucasian Albania is in such a poor condition now. I believe what triggered the remedy in question were WP:AE requests by the sock account, who even managed to place an established user on a 1 year topic ban: [5] Note the complaint of the sock: The immediate concern is his editing of the article on Caucasian Albania, where User:Twilight Chill continues waging an edit war against 5 (five) other unrelated editors (Aram-van, Gorzaim, Vandorenfm, MarshallBagramyan, Xebulon). 4 of 5 accounts that he mentioned turned out later to be socks (User:Aram-van, User:Gorzaim, User:Vandorenfm, and User:Xebulon). Another request was filed on me: [6], and also on the sock itself: [7] I understand that admins at the time had no proof of sockpuppetry and assuming good faith believed that the editors filing complaints were genuine newcomers (even though some admins noted that the account filing complaint was suspicious), but considering that those accounts turned out later to be socks, I think the remedy needs to be reviewed. Therefore I think rather than banning everyone who has been under sanctions at some point in time (I myself was last sanctioned 5 years ago, and since then have no history of blocks, bans or any other sanctions), it would be better if established editors were treated on an individual basis. Many of the established editors have plenty of useful contributions in various areas, and excluding them from editing this article because of the old mistakes in my opinion is not fair. The immediate result of this remedy is that while most of the established users are excluded from editing, the sock accounts get unfair advantage and can freely make any controversial edits to this quite a contentious article in AA area. I believe at the moment it is enough to keep Caucasian Albania on 1RR per day for everyone who wishes to edit it. Grandmaster 09:13, 6 May 2012 (UTC) I think I should have used {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}} template. I can resubmit, if needed. Grandmaster 10:17, 6 May 2012 (UTC) Sandstein, thanks for providing your input. There are presently no disputes going on that article, so WP:DR is not useful here. I just see no reason why me or any other established editor should not be able to edit this article, if he was sanctioned at some point in time. I think it is wrong that a user is excluded from editing process just because he was placed on a revert restriction 5 years ago. Grandmaster 19:39, 6 May 2012 (UTC) Also note that this request does not concern only me personally, it pretty much concerns most experienced editors in AA area, because I don't think there are any who were not placed under sanctions at some point in time. With this remedy, they are all banned from editing this article, regardless if they actually did anything wrong there or not. If we compare this remedy with the 500 edit limit recently imposed on Nagorno-Karabakh, the latter does not ban the new accounts from actually editing the article, it only places them on 1RR until they gain a certain number of edits. The sanction on Caucasian Albania indef bans everybody who has been sanctioned from editing the article, without giving them any chance to make any contribution to it. This leaves the article to the new accounts, many of whom as it turned out were the socks of the banned users, and started the edit wars that led to this sanction. I don't think this helps to improve the quality of this article. Grandmaster 05:32, 7 May 2012 (UTC) The list of socks who edit warred on this article at the time the remedy was imposed: Aram-van (talk · contribs), Xebulon (talk · contribs), Gorzaim (talk · contribs), Vandorenfm (talk · contribs), Bars77 (talk · contribs), Rjbronn (talk · contribs) (the list may not be complete). The remedy did not address the sock activity in this article. I believe this was because at the time there was no solid proof of sockery. But in the light of what we know now, I think the amendment is necessary. Grandmaster 05:54, 7 May 2012 (UTC) Responding to this: [8] I find the accusation of Zimmarod to be a violation of WP:AGF. While reverting my edits, he made no attempt at discussion at talk of the article, to ask me any questions he may have had, but chose to take it here to make some bad faith accusations. The reason why I removed the links to online texts is that one of texts is just a chapter from a book, and that book is already listed in the bibliography, and the second one is an article also listed in bibliography. There's no point in listing the same books and articles twice. As for the online texts, they appear to be posted without any permission of the author, and one of the links is dead anyway. I don't think linking to copyvio is allowed. The result of this rv by Zimmarod: 1) repeated listing in bibliography; 2) restoration of a dead link, and a link to an apparent copyvio material. This may not be worthy of responding, but I see that this user is following my edits, and tries to make a big issue out of nothing. Grandmaster 08:40, 11 May 2012 (UTC) Unarchived, since the request was not formally closed. Grandmaster 08:03, 24 May 2012 (UTC) Please do not edit war over archiving. Edits by the bot could be undone by anyone. The report cannot be archived before it is formally closed. Grandmaster 18:26, 25 May 2012 (UTC) Can someone please formally close this request? It was here for about 1 month now. Grandmaster 09:08, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
Sandstein: [9], Caucasian Albania: [10] Discussion concerning Caucasian Albania article[edit]Statement by Sandstein[edit]I do not find this request convincing. If there is indeed problematic editing of this article on the part of others, it is not clear how removing my sanction would prevent or counteract that. The appropriate reaction would instead be to initiate normal dispute resolution proceedings, beginning with user talk page discussions and ending with eventual SPI or AE requests against the editors responsible for any disruption. The request does not show that any dispute resolution has been attempted. Also, on the basis of this request, it is not clear that the article is at all affected by detrimental editing. The request refers to a single edit to the article, uncited but allegedly undone at [11], which it considers original research. That may or may not be so, but the addition is at any rate not disruptive on its face such that it warrants administrative attention; if it is detrimental it can be amended by editors who are not subject to my sanction, which are all but a handful of Wikipedians. On these grounds, I decline the appeal insofar as it is addressed to me as the administrator who imposed the sanction. That said, as I'm not active in arbitration enforcement, I haven't followed this article (or topic area) for a while. Therefore I have no objection to my sanction being changed or amended as any other uninvolved administrator may deem appropriate. Sandstein 13:35, 6 May 2012 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning Caucasian Albania article[edit]I had taken a "sabbatical", so to say, for quite some time and am not very familiar with the changes and activities here since then. But although the applicant might not have been sanctioned for 5 years, as he says, on the English WP, less than 2 years ago he was sanctioned on the Russian WP for being a part of a large group of off-wiki-organised editors' group acting in favour of A side including organised for/anti voting for Admins etc. Though, correct me if I am wrong, Grandmaster. Considering the severity of activities, as I would judge it, it might be useful to take this fact into consideration when reading the editor's words of appeal. Thanks. Aregakn (talk) 21:46, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
I second Grandmaster's opinion. Some time ago I realized that the current restriction is quite harsh, generally because it actually freezes good-faith editing in breach of WP:AGF so that the article is constantly waiting for improvement by uninvolved users only. The current sanction also creates an unfair situation, where any autoconfirmed sock or meat can edit the article freely, while many established users can't. Brandmeistertalk 15:46, 7 May 2012 (UTC) I concur with both Aregakn and Sandstein. When I took a look at the Caucasian Albania article's talk pages and why there was an article-wide sanction, it turned out that the sanction was placed by Sandstein to prevent Grandmaster and "old" accounts associated with him (his associate Brandmeister) to continue edit war, in which the Grandmaster-Brandmeister duo were bombarding their opponents with racist comments about the origin of sources used in the article. Exactly the same picture today in the Nagorno-Karabakh article, where Grandmaster is currently in a suspended stage of edit war. As hinted by Aregakn, the Grandmaster is a suspicious edit warring account that cultivated a farm of meatpuppets in ruwiki. Brandmaster was his meatpuppet, and it is unsurprising that he was meatpuppetting for Grandmaster everywhere Grandmaster is launching an edit war. Actually the talk pages show that Brandmeister was actually topic banned as a result of his racism for battlegrounding in Caucasian Albania. Nagorno-Karabakh and Caucasian Albania are both prime examples. I see this request as a cynical effort to re-open the can of worms in the Caucasian Albania article and extend the still simmering dispute in Nagorno-Karabakh to other related topics. This appeal is a good opportunity to cast a more somber look at Grandmaster as a meatpuppeteer and edit war abuser and restrict his and his meatpuppeting farm's ability to game the system. Zimmarod (talk) 18:28, 7 May 2012 (UTC) Take a look at this: while this discussion continues, Grandmaster is deleting links to online texts by reputable academics [12] where his interpretation of Caucasian Albania is criticized. Is this vandalism? Again, I doubt Grandmaster filed this request in good faith. Zimmarod (talk) 20:23, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
Just take a look at the showcase of bad faith by Grandmaster in the discussion on the Nagorno-Karabakh [[17]]. Grandmaster tries to avoid an honest discussion about the appropriateness of academic sources, as he replies with irrelevant arguments and tries to back up his position with fake evidence. And now compare this with the discussion of on the talk pages of Caucasian Albania. The same arguments that smell of racism, the same attempts to exclude analysis from the very top academics, the same repetitive patterns and gaming as per WP:GAME. Zimmarod (talk) 20:18, 16 May 2012 (UTC) WP rule say it very clearly that AE requests cannot be filed in bad faith by those who game the system. Zimmarod (talk) 20:19, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
A compromise might work better[edit]Catoclass is right that no sanctions should continue for ever but a possible outcome of fully lifting it should also be considered. As the sanction is on everybody, both, for those conducting a big mess or with single minor dids, I would suggest individual approach and appeals for lifting the sanction as well as a possibility of bringing it back on an editor. Aregakn (talk) 11:57, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
Result concerning Caucasian Albania article[edit]
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
I am sympathetic to this request. Though the original sanction may have had some positive effects at the time of its imposition, I see no reason to extend it indefinitely. More importantly, I think there is an issue of natural justice here; someone who has made a mistake in the past that was at the time considered worthy of only a limited sanction, should surely not be permanently penalized because of that mistake. Also, the sanction penalizes the most minor offenders in the same way as the most severe, which again seems an inappropriate outcome. Additionally, when one considers that even those subject to an indefinite ban are entitled to appeal after six months or a year, it seems incongruous to have a sanction for which there is, effectively, no appeal. And why single out this one article for such special treatment? Finally, while I note that Sandstein suggests that other dispute resolution mechanisms have not been attempted to resolve any outstanding issues with the article, it isn't clear to me how any user disqualified from editing the article or its talk page could initiate such a process. In any case, after more than a year under this sanction, I think it's probably time to try relaxing the existing sanction to the usual 1RR for contentious topics. Gatoclass (talk) 14:46, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
Could another uninvolved admin comment on this case please? Gatoclass (talk) 15:07, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
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Tiamut
[edit]| Withdrawn by complainant. T. Canens (talk) 23:11, 6 June 2012 (UTC) |
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Request concerning Tiamut[edit]
After the second revert at the article an earnest attempt was made at Tiamut's Talk page to persuade the user to self-revert. Even User:Asad112 agreed a self-revert on Tiamut's part would resolve the problem, but Tiamut is now arguing that the second revert – summarized as "removing material added may 4" – somehow doesn't qualify as a revert, or that the circumstances surrounding the revert excuse the user's violation. 1RR is 1RR, and if editors are going to start placing their own subjective rationalizations of the 1RR violations they instigate above the remedies formulated for the topic area, what's the remedies' point? The same standard needs to apply to all editors and at all times, barring cases of obvious vandalism, BLP concerns and such, which aren't applicable to the reverts being discussed here.—Biosketch (talk) 17:57, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
Notified.—Biosketch (talk) 18:11, 5 June 2012 (UTC) Discussion concerning Tiamut[edit]Statement by Tiamut[edit]As I said to Biosketch on my talk page, the material I removed in my second edit was unsourced and uncited and no one has indicated that it should be in the article. I invited him to explain on the talk page there why the material merits inclusion. After all, we are here to write articles not tattle tale on one another. He has declined to do so, because this is not about content. Its about invoking pedantic technicalities as they apply to editors he doesn't like. Something that strikes me as battleground behaviour. Upon reflection though, my refusal to self-revert is obstinacy that can only perpetuate the battle he started, and so I will. Can someone please delete the material again thereafter? Its completely unsourced and uncited and breaks the narrative flow of the article. Thanks. Tiamuttalk 18:43, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Tiamut[edit]Result concerning Tiamut[edit]
Closing as withdrawn. T. Canens (talk) 23:11, 6 June 2012 (UTC) |
TrevelyanL85A2
[edit]| User blocked for 1 month. NW (Talk) 03:23, 7 June 2012 (UTC) |
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Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning TrevelyanL85A2[edit]
Not seeing a requirement for a warning.
Discussion concerning TrevelyanL85A2[edit]Statement by TrevelyanL85A2[edit]Comments by others about the request concerning TrevelyanL85A2[edit]Result concerning TrevelyanL85A2[edit]
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Gazifikator
[edit]| Gazifikator topic-banned indefinitely from all areas covered by WP:ARBAA2. No consensus for any other action, though the persistent disruption may indicate further discussion would be a good idea. Seraphimblade Talk to me 06:08, 11 June 2012 (UTC) |
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Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Gazifikator[edit]
Recently Gazifikator engaged in a disruptive, belligerent editing behaviour, although he was placed on the List of editors warned about possible discretionary sanctions back in 2009. In the Khojaly Massacre (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) he started editwarring to overcome the concerns at the talkpage, displaying WP:IDONTHEARYOU behaviour. In the most recent revert he called a reasoned edit a "vandalism". The editwar is conducted by Gazifikator since at least June 5:
Discussion concerning Gazifikator[edit]Statement by Gazifikator[edit]While for me this is just a content dispute, the comments by admins are depressing. They are only discussing if a one year ban is preferable than a indef one. I personally do not see a difference. I just do not understand, what is so extraordinary with my adding? The sources all are reliable, properly quoted, I was the most active user at the talk. I was the first claiming that Brand and grand are broking WP:Idontlikeit rule ([21]). You can also see some my comment's on their behaviour here [22]. In reality the same Brandmeister reverted more times than me [23][24][25][26][27], he was much less active at talk (he even doesn't explain himself at talk, he done it only when I reported him [28]) and there was a vandal IP on their side, reverted by a neutral user as a vandal [29] (I used the same term, what's wrong there)? I don't understand what tragic happened with my this simple adding of sourced material, that admin's are so upseted (so much, that even claiming I'm the author of section's name which is not true). Brandmeister is doing obviously nationalistic edits like [30] and [31], but noone of admin's consider this so dangerous, than my simple adding of reliable material which even doesn't broke 1rr or NPOV rules. Is an adding of sourced material a serious reason for an... indef ban? Gazifikator (talk) 18:30, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Gazifikator[edit]comment by Sprutt[edit]I don't see any problem with Gazifikator allegedly breaking NPOV rules. Gazificator should be warned not to be carried away by his enthusiasm though, but the real issue here is the 26 Baku Commissars cabal operation led by User:Grandmaster. This is a well known pro-Azerbaijani cabal consisting of User:Grandmaster, User:Brandmeister, User:Interfase, User:Parishan in ruwiki and editing as a tag team english wiki as well. I am copying information about the 26 Commissars cabal from an earlier discussion in AE [32]: "It has been known that Grandmaster was coordinating editing of a large group of Azerbaijani user in Russian wiki from here information on meta-wiki and here [33] by being the head of 26 Baku Commissars." The administrators should take care of the disruptive cabal with identical names in ruwiki and enwiki. Same behavior and same pattern of disruption aimed squarely at owning entire articles per WP:OWN, such as Nagorno-Karabakh and Khojaly Massacre. Sprutt (talk) 15:39, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
Result concerning Gazifikator[edit]
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by TrevelyanL85A2
[edit]| Appeal of TrevelyanL85A2 declined. Collect is warned to avoid hounding Mathsci. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:30, 12 June 2012 (UTC) |
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Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
Copied to this page by Seraphimblade as the previous sanction was a block. Seraphimblade Talk to me 07:12, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
Statement by TrevelyanL85A2[edit]I didn't know my comment for which I was blocked was a violation of my topic ban, as my comment had nothing to do with race and intelligence. I thought my topic ban meant I can't comment on the conduct of editors as it relates to R&I. I did not think it meant that whenever someone has formerly edited in the topic, after that I am permanently banned from commenting on their conduct on every part of the project. It didn't seem possible my ban could mean that, because I can't know every editor who's ever been involved in these articles, so this meaning of my ban would make it impossible for me to know all of whose conduct I'm not allowed to discuss. What led to the current situation was Mathsci continuing to edit my user talk after I asked him to stop, and telling me I needed to bring this up with a member of arbcom. [41] When I followed his advice, he continued baiting me there. [42] Arbitrators have commented that their ruling about me does not allege recruitment or proxying ([43], [44]), so I consider Mathsci's continued claims that I'm just a mouthpiece for someone else, to be personal attacks. Is the opinion of AE that people who were previously involved in R&I are free to provoke me, and when they do my topic ban prohibits me from ever seeking any resolution? I don't understand how I'm supposed to handle these situations, so if I violated my topic ban it's because of that misunderstanding. Clarification would be helpful. There is another issue here that concerns me. Mastcell blocked me less than an hour after Mathsci accused me of violating my topic ban here, and less than half an hour after I was reported at AE, before I or anyone else had time to comment. This is most troubling after Mastcell has performed other administrative tasks in response to private requests from Mathsci, as Mathsci mentioned here: "Irrespective of Jclemens' protection, the two pages were later deleted by MastCell following my request". I know said request was made privately because it wasn't anywhere public. It seems against the spirit of WP:INVOLVED for an admin to use their tools in a way favorable to an editor while privately in contact with that editor, especially when it involves overruling another admin or blocking someone. I understand that perhaps AE can't resolve questions about admin involvement or problems caused by the wording of my topic ban. So the main reason I'd like to be unblocked is because if these issues can't be resolved here, I think I should raise them with arbcom. What needs resolution also includes the dispute between Mathsci, Nyttend, Collect, Future Perfect, Mastcell and Jclemens over when it is or isn't necessary to remove comments by Echigo Mole socks, especially in the user talk of people who don't want them removed. If AE isn't willing to lift my block completely, I'd like it to be lifted with the limitation that for the rest of its duration I can only edit pages related to requesting arbitration about these issues. If someone else requests arbitration and includes me as a party, I also would like to be unblocked so I can participate. If this request is posted at AE, I also request that someone please notify Collect and Nyttend about it, as they were the other participants in the dispute at AN that led to my being reported. additional statement copied over by Mathsci from User talk:TrevelyanL85A2 [45]:
Statement by MastCell[edit]The wording of the ArbCom remedy is clear and unequivocal, and I don't see any credible way in which TrevelyanL85A2 could have misunderstood it. S/he seems eagerly intent on further litigation against Mathsci (which is exactly what the ArbCom remedy was intended to forestall), so I'm comfortable that a block was the right call, and am considering extending it. The closure of the WP:AE request was reviewed by at least two other admins beside myself, but I'm fine with more scrutiny, since I don't think this is a gray area in any way. MastCell Talk 06:13, 9 June 2012 (UTC) Statement by Mathsci[edit]The original request at WP:AE just above here was made by Nobody Ent. On Wednesday 6 June just before midnight I was reading Jean-Marie Roux's "Saint-Jean-de-Malte," obtained that day from the presbytery of SJdM, and went to sleep, waking up just after 7 a.m. During that time Nobody Ent made the report above and MastCell blocked TrevelyanL85A2. I only became aware of it because TrevelyanL85A2's block showed up on my watchlist. I did not contact MastCell privately about TrevelyanL85A2's posting. The other issues he raises have nothing to do with him or WP:AE. I have no idea why he is mentioning these matters here or is suggesting further litigation against me either by him or other unspecified users. Echigo mole is a community-banned harassment-only editor. Johnuniq's reversion of edits by blatant ipsocks was not tag-teaming;[46][47] it was wikipedia policy. The same applied to my reversion of a previous ipsock. Mathsci (talk) 07:48, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
Statement by Collect (who may or may not be involved)[edit]I happened on this mention of me by happenstance, and was not notified thereof. Mathsci has, in the past, been specifically noted for BATTLEGROUND conduct (see multiple ArbCom archives and other discussions). His handling of this affair [53] was not made in a collegial manner, and could readily be construed as himself crossing the line. Comments such as Wow, what a great wikipedian you are! and Now you are apparently not only sending out encouraging signs to him on your talk page, but also continuing to make trolling edits here demonstrate BATTLEGROUND conduct, and personal attacks. (also note Mathsci's wondrous continuation with Collect on the other hand is just making assinine trolling edits here which I consider further evidence that Trevelyan is not the only one at fault by a few inches.) In short, I suggest that this appeal also note Mathsci's clear involvement and acts contrary to prior ArbCom rulings and proposed rulings. Including Mathsci has engaged in borderline personal attacks and frequent battleground conduct in respect of editors he perceives as ideological opponent, Since then, within the area of dispute, the user has engaged in incivility and personal attacks in text, [2][3][4] and in edit summaries;[5][6] once went so far as to accuse one editor of being a "holocaust denier";[7] routinely threatens other editors with blocks,[8][9][10] and has made other, veiled threats.[11] The editor has also engaged in edit-warring with long series of reverts in short periods, notably in May 2010, uzw. Cheers. And give Trevelyan and Mathsci each a nice trout. MastCell has good intentions, but the result was not ideal. Collect (talk) 12:22, 9 June 2012 (UTC) @Mathsci - I demur, and note that I was mentioned above in this action. Have a large cup of tea, please. Cheers. Collect (talk) 20:24, 9 June 2012 (UTC) @Mathsci - when a person is mentioned here by others, it is rather a "d'oh" moment to question why they post here. I am not berating anyone - only suggesting that the use of noticeboards to get retribution for sins <g> is more a problem than it is a solution to the ills of the world, and that sometimes a cup of tea (or a trout where the acts warrant) is a better solution all around. Cheers. Collect (talk) 00:07, 10 June 2012 (UTC) Note: I was not the one who inserted my name into this. Warning me not to respond when my name is actually mentioned seems outre. Nor did I make any unfounded claims here about anyone or suggest anything more heinous than a trout and a cup of tea. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:09, 10 June 2012 (UTC) @FP - note that Mathsci has repeatedly edited my user talk page etc. and made comments concerning me - thus he has everso slightly soiled hands. Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:54, 10 June 2012 (UTC) @FP -- under what conceivable rationale am I listed under the R&I sanctions? I have at no time proposed any actions aginst Mathsci of any level higher than a trout, and I have had AFAICT no connection with R&I at any point, making this sanction utterly incomprehensible to me. Nor AFAICT was any request for sanctions made concerning me and R&I. Cheers - but this is a bit of weirdness AFAICT. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:07, 12 June 2012 (UTC) Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by TrevelyanL85A2[edit]Result of the appeal by TrevelyanL85A2[edit]
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Gazifikator
[edit]| Indeffed for clear violation of topic ban. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:55, 14 June 2012 (UTC) |
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Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Gazifikator[edit]
On 11 June 2012 Gazifikator was indef topic banned from Armenia Azerbaijan related articles. However the same day Gazifikator evaded his ban with a sock account Retyp (talk · contribs), and continued the edit war on Charles Aznavour. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Gazifikator. Grandmaster 20:23, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Gazifikator[edit]Statement by Gazifikator[edit]Comments by others about the request concerning Gazifikator[edit]Result concerning Gazifikator[edit]
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Esoglou
[edit]| Esoglou (talk · contribs) is banned from all articles and discussions pertaining to Abortion for 6 months, broadly construed. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:55, 17 June 2012 (UTC) | ||
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Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Esoglou[edit]
Previous warnings (pre-topic ban) linked in earlier AE case.
These two edits alone, looked at out of context, may not look like much - poorly sourced original synthesis with a POV aim, to be sure, and repeated after a warning, but only two. However, this user has already been topic-banned for several months because of his repeated and persistent attempts to engage in original synthesis and analysis in order to get Wikipedia to conform to his anti-abortion views. These recent edits demonstrate that he has not learned his lesson and that further preventative measures are required.
Discussion concerning Esoglou[edit]Statement by Esoglou[edit]I thank Roscelese for giving me the possibility of responding to her accusation. Previously, I (alone) was topic-banned without any such discussion as a result of interaction with her and I chose not to make a fuss about it. In this matter, it seems to me that Roscelese and Binksternet should be reprimanded for non-collaboratively reverting everything instead of entering a discussion aimed at reaching an agreed text. This is the third such action on their part on the same article. After the first reverting I initiated a discussion (Talk:Catholics for Choice#Reversal), which happily concluded with an agreement to remove an inaccuracy that I wanted remedied. After the second reverting I began another discussion (Talk:Catholics for Choice#The "ban" of latae sententiae excommunication), which ended, thanks to the intervention of a neutral observer, in acceptance of the explanatory wikilink that I thought was needed. I am hopeful that, after discussion, a similar agreement can be reached this time too. I think that there (Talk:Catholics for Choice#Catholic organization), not here, is the place to discuss details of wording. I would welcome interventions of all kinds there. Esoglou (talk) 07:51, 7 June 2012 (UTC) Perhaps I should have stated that my two edits of 6 and 7 June were each a modification of the preceding edit, done for the purpose of taking account of observations on Talk and to end discussion of turns of phrase that I had agreed to remove. Thinking that this was obvious, and that making such edits, far from contravening Wikipedia rules, was instead in conformity with a spirit of collaboration, I did not mention it. Esoglou (talk) 07:53, 8 June 2012 (UTC) Reply to Roscelese's reply to Esoglou (above): My humorous comment on your Talk page about you having me tied up was in imitation, even in wording, of the humorous comment that I noticed you had made on Pseudo-Richard's Talk page. Yes I was blocked, again alone, though only briefly, on grounds of "edit warring"; your renewed reverting does not count as edit warring; in view of the support you seem to enjoy among some Administrators, it is wise for me to make no fuss about being tied up. As you say, "it's not like it would have done anything". Commentators here do seem to disagree with your claim that the edits I made were against WP policy. Esoglou (talk) 16:29, 7 June 2012 (UTC) Commentators do seem to dislike my touch of humour ("tying me up"), which was intended as imitative, and take it to have been meant as baiting. I am sorry for doing something that, contrary to my intention, could be interpreted in that way, and I will, of course, accept whatever tying up is dealt out to me as punishment for my fault. Esoglou (talk) 13:52, 9 June 2012 (UTC) The comments in the Results section seem to be heading towards some punishment for my idea of humour or rather for the interpretation that some people put on it as "a deliberate act clearly intended to be unconstructive and rude", and on the basis of an earlier topic ban that I thought (and think) was unjustified, but did not appeal against. Where did I get the image? From the humorous essay Wikipedia:WikiSpeak. It caused amusement also on the Talk page of that article. But not here. Pity. I think I'll put it on my own Talk page. I wonder what the punishment will be. A renewed topic ban on abortion? I haven't been following that topic. On the "Catholics for Choice" page, there were three points, and only three, that I wanted fixed. I have succeeded in two. As for the third, even with the help of several other editors it seems impossible to get Roscelese and Binksternet to accept that Wikipedia neutrality policy does not sanction the presentation as fact of the description of CFC as a "Catholic organization" (without distinguishing between an organization of Catholics and an organization that is itself Catholic), despite the denial by the Church itself that CFC is a Catholic organization in the second sense. Two out of three isn't bad. Esoglou (talk) 16:46, 10 June 2012 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning Esoglou[edit]Esoglou performed these changes in the face of previous discussions (Talk:Catholics_for_Choice#.22Catholic.22_in_Lead, Talk:Catholics_for_Choice/Archive_2#The_lead_paragraph) determining that the CFC was a "Catholic" organization because of self-identification, and that official Catholic Church sources were not able to take away that self-determination. Esoglou represents the Church's official position on Wikipedia; in that sense he is an activist rather than a neutral editor. I do not wish to have the encyclopedia become the voice of the Catholic Church. Binksternet (talk) 22:05, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
I don't know if I am involved or not, although I don't think that I am directly. I tend to agree with Seraphimblade's comments below. Talk page comments which are all but impossible to be seen as being constructive from an editor already under sanctions is to my eyes sufficient cause for the imposition of some form of sanction. Based on what little I know as a relatively infrequent contributor here, three month sanctions seem to be among the shorter duration sanctions we offer, and I think might be one of the more reasonable choices available here. John Carter (talk) 21:08, 9 June 2012 (UTC) Result concerning Esoglou[edit]
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Dalai lama ding dong
[edit]| This has been open for a long while, and I don't see any major consensus developing. There is no action taken on Dalai lama ding dong, but he is advised to be cautious editing in the topic area and to be especially conscious of properly representing sources. He is further advised that infractions in the future will most likely lead to stiffer sanctions. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:38, 18 June 2012 (UTC) |
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Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Dalai lama ding dong[edit]
Dalai Lama Ding Dong has been repeatedly warned and banned for a 1rr violation and for violating a topic ban three times. Immediately after this ban ended, DLDL again violated 1rr.
DLDD has continued to make egregious false claims to justify the removal of content and support his POV, which I feel mandates an indefinite ban. The examples below all occurred after the filing of this report. DLDD removed article content and an accompanying source, stating that he had "Removed claim which is not in tne source" This is false; the source refers to "the left-wing soldiers’ protest organization Breaking the Silence" which directly supports the content that DLDD unilaterally removed. DLDD also removed a Times paywall link and inserted a meaningless [1] tag as a source. When questioned on the talk page by a third party, he justified this by stating: "Material that fails verification may be tagged with [not in citation given] or removed", referring to WP:SOURCE. This is false, the source in question was captured by Archive.org and clearly supports the content it was cited for. DLDD removes the content "as part of a goodwill gesture to PA chairman Mahmoud Abbas" in this edit. He falsely states that "Removed text that is not in the sources. " The source states that "Israel’s repatriation of the bodies is part of a goodwill gesture to Abbas."
DLDD has tried to minimize the significance of the Camp David negotiations by different means. The source that he introduced in this edit states that Barak finally acquiesced "to the mid-90s range" which was subsequently improved upon and "under the settlement outlined by the President, Palestine would have sovereignty over 94 to 96 percent of the West Bank". Instead this source was solely used to expand the lower limit to 91%, something which only constituted an initial proposal but was later increased: "Barak and the Americans insisted that Arafat accept them as general “bases for negotiations” before launching into more rigorous negotiations. According to those “bases,” Palestine would have sovereignty over 91 percent of the West Bank" Additionally the selective use of the phrase "bases for negotiation" and the original research insertion of "via the U.S." inaccurately portrays this major trilateral convention in which both parties directly discussed these issues. @T.Canens Wiki policy states: A "revert" means any edit (or administrative action) that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material. It can involve as little as one word. I refer to Sandstein who agreed with Ed Johnson among others: "WP:3RR provides that "A "revert" means any edit (or administrative action) that reverses the actions of other editors," (in this case, Shuki) "in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material. It can involve as little as one word." According to that policy definition, every tweak is indeed a revert, as Mkativerata says. I disagree with T.Canens that under that definition even "even adding material that has never been there is a revert", because in that case there is no action by others that is undone." I note that you and others have disagreed with this though the reasoning offered of constructive "tweaks" is not applicable here as DLDD's edits misrepresented the source asides from introducing a disputed POV text, within a 24 hour period. This issue constantly rears its head at AE and I am surprised that once again you see fit to ask this question. Various AE's demonstrate how this policy has been approached. What exactly about this revert policy requires clarification and can you specify why you are of the opinion that this does not "reverse the actions of other editors"? @BHB These events directly ensued from the Camp David summit and are connected in the source presented and many others. Please see the Israeli–Palestinian conflict article and you will see that these proposals have received no mention at all and have conveniently been omitted. @The Blade of the Northern Lights You state: "2 was a separate wording fix". It was not a fix, it was a hotly disputed change and I remind you that a revert "reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material." Edits 2 and 3 were clear reverts of previous material.
Discussion concerning Dalai lama ding dong[edit]Statement by Dalai lama ding dong[edit]Entering new text is not a revert. Editor Ankmorpork makes continual changes to articles. I am not aware that there is a limit to the number of times thst you can edit an article, and add new information. Dalai lama ding dong (talk) 11:37, 1 June 2012 (UTC) There is no false use of sources, as suggested below. The 91 per cent comes from another wikipedia article. The RS used was only for the re wording as to whether or not an actual offer was made by Barak, to Arafat, or whether there were merely 'bases for discussion' relayed via the U.S, a claim which is fully supported by the RS. I have self reverted the 91 to 92 per cent. The important point is that there was concensus, (including from the originator of this AE) for a range, not a single figure. Reference the claims above. See this source which I added in. http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2001/aug/09/camp-david-the-tragedy-of-errors/?page=4 The figure of 91 per cent is on page 3. Therefore Shrike should revert the claim that I falsified what the source said. I have been asked where the 91% came from. It come from an update I made at the the 2000 Camp David Summit page http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2000_Camp_David_Summit&diff=prev&oldid=495200868 The change I made there was to add in the figures 90–91%, and I based those figures on an existing source, this is the source. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/rossmap2.html From below. 17:36, 31 May 2012 - DLDD changes 92% to 91%. A revert, and still not supported by a source. The article again misrepresents the sources. If DLDD's edit at 21:49, 30 May 2012 is a revert, and it does seem to be undoing someone's work, then DLDD violated the 1RR remedy. 17:54, 31 May 2012 - DLDD replaces "offered" with "put forward the following as 'bases for negotiation', via the U.S. to". If that's to be a revert, I'd need to see a version reverted to. 17:58, 31 May 201 - DLDD adds a source supporting 91%, though he gives the wrong page number. The page no longer misrepresents the sources Please note that the change made at 17:54 should have included the source, but I clearly missed it out, and did not realise for 4 minutes. It was added at time 1758, ad is as follows. [2] Comments by others about the request concerning Dalai lama ding dong[edit]Statement by Shrike[edit]There also apparent source falsification with this edit [61] as changing from 92% to 91% but the source only mention 92% [62]--Shrike (talk) 11:44, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
Statement by DLV999[edit]@Shrike: From the cited source "According to those “bases,” Palestine would have sovereignty over 91 percent of the West Bank; Israel would annex 9 percent of the West Bank and, in exchange, Palestine would have sovereignty over parts of pre-1967". In fact the the unsourced claim here is the 95% which has nothing to support it from what I can see. But for some reason this does not seem to be an issue for Shrike and the complainant. Dlv999 (talk) 11:55, 1 June 2012 (UTC) @Shrike: It appears on page 3 of the article [64], which is the cited source for the edit you are alleging was falsified. In fact the source says what the edit says. The source goes on to discuss further proposals that were made in December 5 months after Camp David which led to the Taba summit in January the following year. That is where the 94-96% figures come in, but to try to say these numbers were on the table at Camp David is misrepresentation of sources. On this detail Dalai Lama Ding Dong is quite right and the complainant is in the wrong. Dlv999 (talk) 12:22, 1 June 2012 (UTC) @Shrike, what are you saying? It was already discussed on talk [65] that sources do not give the exact same figure and that we should give a range based on what reliable sources say. In light of that discussion DLDD adds a source and amends the range to reflect his cited source.[66] and you say this is falsification? In fact the issue here is that the 95% claim added by the complainant is totally unsupported, but I suspect this detail will be ignored in the proceedings. Dlv999 (talk) 12:48, 1 June 2012 (UTC) Shrike has refused to withdraw the accusation and now adds a new one. Now apparently it is tendentious to change "between 92% and 95%" to "between 91% and 95%" (supplying a source supporting 91%) because there is another sources that "still support the former figure". This, despite the fact that it had already been agreed on talk to give a range representing what different RS have said.[67]). I believe these unfounded accusations and refusal to withdraw them reach the level of tendentious behavior and I think this kind of WP:GAMEing of the ARPBIA administrative environment is a far more serious problem to the topic area than the alleged 1rr violation brought against DLDD. Dlv999 (talk) 13:55, 1 June 2012 (UTC) User AnkhMorpork is misrepresenting sources in his statement. He quotes DLDD's citation for the 91% claim as saying "under the settlement outlined by the President, Palestine would have sovereignty over 94 to 96 percent of the West Bank" but misses out the all important context prior to this statement, "Many of those inclined to blame Arafat alone for the collapse of the negotiations point to his inability to accept the ideas for a settlement put forward by Clinton on December 23, five months after the Camp David talks ended....The President’s proposal showed that the distance traveled since Camp David was indeed considerable, and almost all in the Palestinians’ direction. Under the settlement outlined by the President, Palestine would have sovereignty over 94 to 96 percent of the West Bank." [68]. To try to use this to say that the offer on the table at Camp David was for 94-96% is a blatant misrepresentation of the source. DLDD quoted the correct figure, for Camp David, which is the topic of the section in question. Dlv999 (talk) 14:53, 1 June 2012 (UTC) Statement by BHB[edit]@Shrike - That's a ridiculous allegation. The source given by DLDD was the correct source (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict&diff=495330341&oldid=495329787) and it fully supports his contention. His initial insertion of 91% was made before Karsh had been inserted into the article (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict&diff=495200592&oldid=495199550) so the idea that he is trying to support that figure with the reference someone else added in later is complete nonsense. BothHandsBlack (talk) 12:45, 1 June 2012 (UTC) @AnkhMorpork - That is a gross misrepresentation of the source. It reads: "Many of those inclined to blame Arafat alone for the collapse of the negotiations point to his inability to accept the ideas for a settlement put forward by Clinton on December 23, five months after the Camp David talks ended. During these months additional talks had taken place between Israelis and Palestinians, and furious violence had broken out between the two sides. The President’s proposal showed that the distance traveled since Camp David was indeed considerable, and almost all in the Palestinians’ direction. Under the settlement outlined by the President, Palestine would have sovereignty over 94 to 96 percent of the West Bank and it would as well have land belonging to pre-1967 Israel equivalent to another 1 to 3 percent of West Bank territory." The 94-96% figure you keep stressing came five months after Camp David and not from Barak at Camp David. There is no reason anyone should take those figures into account when describing the completely different offer made at Camp David. Indeed, the source even stresses how much of a departure from the Camp David position these figures are. BothHandsBlack (talk) 14:30, 1 June 2012 (UTC) @Ankh - I don't dispute that there is a place for these later developments in the article but you are misrepresenting them by placing them in a context that suggests that this is what was offered at Camp David and this makes your criticism of another editor for failing to include that information in an inappropriate context doubly problematic. BothHandsBlack (talk) 15:29, 1 June 2012 (UTC) @Tom - That PBS transcript is a terrible source and surely can't be relied on for that figure. 94.5% is not reported by a journalist but is a number pulled out by a talking head over whom PBS has no editorial control. Further the 94.5% figure is not directly said to have been offered by Barak and is nowhere included in the news report section of the source but is, rather, a figure used when the talking head hypothesises about what someone in Israel might say if Barak returned with a deal. If that is the only source for the 95% figure then that figure shouldn't be there at all. The passage reads: "And [Barak's] going to get massacred when he gets back. People say run this by me again, you're giving up 94.5 percent of the West Bank, you're - the refugees - and go through a whole long list -- and you're not getting closure on Jerusalem. So we really don't have the end of the conflict. And so basically he's going to get massacred at home, but so far he hasn't accepted the proposal in totality, and I don't want to suggest that everything's hunky dory on the Israeli side. But he's going forward." So it's just a hypothetical list of things and not even a list that the speaker claims has been accepted by Barak. It certainly shouldn't be used to support a sentence claiming that Barak made such an offer. BothHandsBlack (talk) 16:03, 1 June 2012 (UTC) @T.Canens - Tom's analysis suggested two reverts but you have said that you yourself don't think the first one is a revert. That leaves only one revert, which is an acceptable number. What exactly is the crime for which you are suggesting a 6 month topic ban if he did not breach 1RR?BothHandsBlack (talk) 09:00, 2 June 2012 (UTC) BothHandsBlack (talk) 16:03, 1 June 2012 (UTC) @JJG and RSA - DLDD's edit summary stating that no evidence was supplied to support this particular claim is perfectly true, as the diff shows. Indeed, there isn't a single source cited in the paragraph he edited. Now, it's also true that two paragraphs further on seven citations are supplied to support the sentence "His call was echoed by a huge volume of Twitter users" and that the information supporting the material DLDD removed is in one of these. However, it hardly seems reasonable to expect that someone editing the first paragraph should have to look for support for the statements there in another place entirely. So yes, the information could be found by following a link somewhere in the section but since the source to which you refer isn't mentioned anywhere near the claim that was edited it seems ridiculous to refer to the edit as source falsification. The statement he edited just wasn't supported by a source at all although it could have been and should have been. @JJG His actions certainly come nowhere near to the level of active source misrepresentation you have engaged in during this process.BothHandsBlack (talk) 14:39, 8 June 2012 (UTC) @Biosketch - The second edit might be thought to be gaming the system if it involved edit warring and waiting until the 24 hours were up to restore his previous version. But no such thing happened. He waited 24 hours to make an edit that was completely different to the one he made 24 hours previously, that took account of and maintained the input of the previous editor, and that sought to find some middle-ground between two sources. BothHandsBlack (talk) 13:35, 12 June 2012 (UTC) Statement by Sean.hoyland[edit]Shrike, what you are doing is wrong. It's misrepresentation. You have made a patently false accusation against an editor of "apparent source falsification" at AE, repeated in bold, when the evidence clearly shows that they didn't do anything wrong. Here is Dalai lama ding dong's edit. They put the citation at the end of the sentence rather than mid-sentence just like hundreds, if not thousands, of other editors. The source cited supports the edit. You should withdraw the accusation. Sean.hoyland - talk 12:55, 1 June 2012 (UTC) This is the sorry state of the topic area. Shrike accused DLDD of misrepresenting a source when he put a source at the end of a sentence rather than right next to a number and JJG+RSA (is RSA even allowed to be here?) accused him of misrepresenting a source because he removed material that didn't have a citation next to it. The Fox source is 2 paragraphs away. People can do better than this. Sean.hoyland - talk 15:52, 8 June 2012 (UTC) Re. Jiujitsuguy's "Res ipsa loquitur. The thing speaks for itself. There is no need to elaborate" comment at 00:12, 16 June 2012 (UTC). There is a need to elaborate because the statement is a half-truth. The normal editorial process is breaking down in the topic area in several articles because editors prefer to revert rather than discuss. This instance cited by JJG an example.
Sean.hoyland - talk 09:55, 16 June 2012 (UTC) Statement by Tom Harrison[edit]
I don't think DLDD deliberately misrepresented the sources, but he was negligent. Because of his sloppy work, and his reverting to that same uncited figure, the article misrepresented the source(s) it cited for some time. This is more serious than violating 1RR, and I'd sanction him for this alone. His edits at 21:49, 30 May 2012 and 17:36, 31 May 2012 did violate 1RR. I'd sanction him for that also. I'm more sympathetic for GHcool, who seems to have been trying to correct DLDD's edits. He does appear to have violated 1RR, but he might reasonably argue that his edit of 21:56, 30 May 2012 should not trigger 1RR. It shouldn't be possible for someone to change a number without providing a citation and force others into 1RR when they revert. Tom Harrison Talk 15:46, 1 June 2012 (UTC) Statement by Jiujitsuguy[edit]Moreover, I find this edit by Dali to be equally troubling. He again adds the 91% figure and that is adequately supported by page 3. However, he omits content from page 4 which states Under the settlement outlined by the President, Palestine would have sovereignty over 94 to 96 percent of the West Bank The deliberate omission is misleading in the extreme and violates WP:TE--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 14:57, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
Statement by Zero0000[edit]This is a very poorly supported complaint. The percentage thing (91 or 92) is an easily solved triviality; different sources give different numbers, big deal, and people who want to write 95 are simply mistaken. The last diff given is in fact a very good edit. The fact that AnkhMorpk thinks "The Palestinians have had their continuing incitement to violence against Jews and Israel harshly criticized by Israeli officials and other political figure" is better than "Israeli officials and other political figures have harshly criticized what they regard as Palestinians inciting violence against Jews and Israel" shows that AnkhMorpk has not yet learned about fundamentals of Wikipedia such as the requirement to attribute opinions to their sources. Zerotalk 16:07, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
@T. Canens: I don't see any serious breach here. At most some carelessness. Your proposal seems to me excessive. Zerotalk 12:49, 2 June 2012 (UTC) Question by Beyond My Ken[edit]Since unsourced derogatory statements about living persons are forbidden anywhere on Wikipedia, and since the Dalai Lama is a living person, and "ding dong" is a playground expression meaning "idiot" or "fool", why is "Dalai lama ding dong" a permitted username? Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:01, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
Here's a list of articles DLDD edited while topic banned - Jewish culture, The Holocaust in Norway, Antisemitism in Norway, Septuagint, Purim, Book of Esther, Slavery (guess by whom), Origins of Judaism, Noahide laws, Mehadrin bus lines (probably a topic ban violation), Hebrews, Shechita, Kashrut, Antisemitism, Conversion to Judaism, Chabad, Holocaust denial, Brit milah, Messianic Judaism, Sacred prostitution (guess relating to what religion), Shomrim (volunteers), Criticism of Holocaust denial and Names of the Holocaust. I may have missed a few, but you get the gist. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:22, 4 June 2012 (UTC) Statement by Red Stone Arsenal[edit]I have no opinion on the diffs reported bu the original complaint, not having looked at them in detail. BUT - while all this is going on, DLDD has on at least one occasion misrepresented sources: here he claims that " No evidence or source provided for the claim that the tweeter claimed that the child was killed in an IDFairstrike." , and then removes the material base don this. but in fact, the source cited - Fox News [3] did explkcitly make that claim "The Twitter message, which was a huge hit, claimed that the Palestinian Arab girl had died from an Israeli airstrike the day before. ". Red Stone Arsenal (talk) 21:32, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
Excuse me, why is User:RolandR defending an editor who won't engage in discussion relating to out-of-date sources when the newer sources present a completely different picture of a confrontation between Jews and Arabs? Why is RolandR defending an editor who makes two reverts in 24 hours and 13 minutes at an article clearly related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Why is he assuming bad faith to the effect that I had time yesterday to find sources in English but didn't because I was more interested in removing content from the article when in fact all I did was transplant it to the Discussion page in the hope that a collaborative user who did have time would do a search himself for something like "malha mall police" in Google and be able to improve the outdated content over which I had raised valid concerns? And why is it that every time RolandR has something to contribute at AE it is consistently on one side of the dispute in the topic area? It is exceedingly disruptive.—Biosketch (talk) 13:24, 12 June 2012 (UTC) Statement by 99.237.236.218[edit]I don't have an opinion on this and don't fully know the process, but I notice that it has been a week now since any admin posted in the result section. Isn't it time to take some action about this case? It seems the evidence has been presented and several options have been suggested. 99.237.236.218 (talk) 14:57, 11 June 2012 (UTC) Statement by RolandR[edit]AnkhMorpork added a complaint above about alleged "further disruptive editing" by DLDD. In fact, DLDD self-reverted both edits complained about, one after a few hours, one after a few minutes, and both several days before AM complained. RolandR (talk) 08:23, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
Statement by Nishidani[edit]Generally, the IR rule, though salutary, appears to be used to trap editors one dislikes, usually by tagteaming. As here, context and the talk page are ignored, and editors revert without examining either the talk page, assuming good faith, or doing some homework. This continual bickering is making the I/P area almost impossible to work, because the alacrity with which reverts are made, with edit summaries that are unsatisfactory, or in defiance of plain facts on the talk page, or in clear ignorance of the content in RS, means complaints arise out of a battleground mentality, rather than a concern (often speciously voiced) for the efficient functioning of this encyclopedia. I think it would be wise to look at the revert records of everyone complaining about DDLL here, and where edit-warring occurs, look at who works with whom, in order to clarify what's going on, and impose some general sanctions. Nishidani (talk) 10:47, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
Result concerning Dalai lama ding dong[edit]
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Igny
[edit]| Igny and UUNC are topic banned indefinitely from the topic of Eastern Europe, broadly construed. Sander Säde is topic banned from the topic of Eastern Europe, broadly construed, until 00:00 GMT on 24 September 2012. Seraphimblade Talk to me 14:48, 23 June 2012 (UTC) |
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Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Igny[edit]
Igny has resumed his old disruptive behaviour on his first day back, 11 June 2012, from a six month topic ban:
despite being repeatedly warned to stop [79],[80],[81] and even after being reported to 3RN[82], reverts again:
Igny was topic banned for 6 months[83] for similar behaviour as stated by the enforcement admin:
Igny seems to have some kind of obsession with this article, having previously been blocked for 72 hours for tag-warring this same article [84] and earlier engaged in page move warring:
Evidently topic bans do not work, as Igny states "I do not care less about my topic ban"[85]
Sander apologised for his remarks here at AE[87] and at Paul Siebert's talk page[88], which Paul accepted[89], before any admin arrived here to comment. In the past when I was attacked as a "right wing extremist" espousing ethnic nationalist POV and that person refused to apologise, I brought that person to this page[90] and after a long discussion he finally apologised to me after the admins here threatened to sanction him, then the matter was closed without action. Therefore for the sake of consistency the Sander Säde matter should be closed without any action other than to encourage him to remain civil in the future.
Notified [91]. --Nug (talk) 10:32, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Igny[edit]Statement by Igny[edit]Comments by others about the request concerning Igny[edit]Comment by Collect[edit]Igny's single-minded perseverence about labeling an article title as being POV includes:
Igny was warned by me at [130] quite politely. Paul Siebert informed him at [131] not to revert. He also posted at [132] that In my opinion, jumping into this swamp right after the end of your topic ban was a mistake. Then [133] Do not try to restore a POV tag, please. Let's wait (Paul notified at [134]) [135] shows the notice of the topic ban per Arbitration Requests/Enforcement on October 7, 2011. It is reasonably clear to the most casual observer that Igny did not learn anything from the six month ban. He also single-mindedly kept asserting the the "occupation" was a "liberation" in the past. In October he was banned for six months on this same issue about Easter Europe. I would note he has repeatedly inferred that I am part of a "mailing list" or the like, which I found quite unprepossessing on his part. [136], [137], [138], [139], and especially [140] show a blatant ongoing BATTLEGROUND issue here on his part. At the last he specifically states:
Which I submit indicates clearly that Igny should not be within a mile of Eastern Europe articles or discussions of any sort. Collect (talk) 11:32, 19 June 2012 (UTC) @UUNC - I an not "Latvian" so why make that sort of claim when the reverts over time have been made by about a dozen editors -- all of the pov tag insertion by a single editor who has already had a topic ban? Did you read the prior discussion at AE? Also note you now are up to a total of 22 edits, potentially raising questions to some. Collect (talk) 11:46, 19 June 2012 (UTC) Wikipedia:WQA#User:Sander_S.C3.A4de.27s_gross_incivility is even more evidence here to confirm the original October 2011 findings at [141] and Igny's userspace page at [142]. Cheers all. Collect (talk) 11:44, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
@PS - you assert that I used the word "warned" wrt your multiple posts to Igny - I do not find that word used by me here with regard to your clear salient posts, which anyone clearly may read. Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:46, 21 June 2012 (UTC) comment from UUNC[edit]
comment[edit]
That an article is in an "NPOV dispute" does not necessarily mean it is biased, only that someone feels that it is. To indicate that the neutrality of an article is disputed, insert "disputed" at the top of the article to display: The tag says "The neutrality of this article is disputed. Please see the discussion on the talk page. Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved" User Igny made his edits in full compliance with Wikipedia's rules as there are currently three users who dispute the article's neutrality. Conversely, removal of the tag by the opposing team is a breach of the rule. And following from what is cited above, any user has right to insert this tag once he/she disagrees with the content. There is no need for consensus for this tag because it is designed specifically to indicate that there is no consensus. The Latvian editors attempt to use their greater numbers to secure their own version of the article and to hide the ongoing dispute by removing the legitimately placed disputed tag. They accuse other editors in racism [144] "racist trolls", Baltophoby [145] and Stalinism [146]. There is obvious coordination between the Latvian editors and abuse of the arbitration enforcement. I think such malintended reporting should backfire at those who makes the report. --UUNC (talk) 11:09, 19 June 2012 (UTC) Re @My very best wishes. The insertion of the "disputed" tag does not require consensus. It is specifically designed for the cases where there is no consensus as follows from its description. --UUNC (talk) 20:00, 19 June 2012 (UTC) @ T. Canens You accuse me in being a meatpuppet and prpose indef ban. In that case why the EEML people were ot indef banned if there were multiple documented instances of meatpuppetry? They all should be banned long ago. @ DQ Does not WP:Ninja which Paul linked say that blocking somebody reverting such ninja team for 3RR is misuse and misinterpretation of WP:3RR? Comment by involved Paul Siebert[edit]I was notified about this case by Collect. Since my name has been mentioned here, I believe I have a right to comment. In the second part of my post, I would like to point arbitrator's attention at the subject that has a direct relation to some participants of this dispute. Let me start with the explanations first. First of all, let me explain the essence of the dispute. One part of users (Igny and I are the most active representatives of this party) maintain that the word "Annexation" (along the word "occupation") should be present is the title of the article about the history of the Baltic states during 1940-91. Another party insists that the word "occupation" solely reflects the state of things quite adequately. (I do not go into the further details here, because AE page it is not for content disputes.) The sequence of the events, as I see it was as follows.
The rest of story has been described in the Nug's post. To that I would like to add the following:
Going back to Miacek/Estlandia, I would like to discuss him and Nug, and the problem with new names of the ex-EEML members in general. I noticed that some ex-EEML members changed their names, and some of them did that twice. I fully understand their quite legitimate desire to disassociate themselves from the regrettable incident with EEML, moreover, I interpret that step as a sign of their genuine desire to drop their previous disruptive behaviour, and I never mention EEML in discussions with those EEML members who learned due lessons from that story. However, I see some problems with the name change. Although the name change is not a clean start, and the user acting under a new name does not need to abandon the previous areas of interest, disassociation of one's name from the EEML story is possible only if one's editorial behaviour has been really improved, and the battleground behaviour has been really abandoned. However, how can we interpret, for example, this [155] statement? Nug remind others that TFD was warned per WP:DIGWUREN. That is correct, however, this post creates a misleading impression that its author is a user whose hands are clean. Indeed, one cannot find Nug's name among the editors who has been warned ber WP:DIGWUREN, however, a user:Martintg was placed under formal notice on 22 June 2009. Interestingly, whereas it is technically possible to trace the connection from Nug to ex-EEML member Martintg, a user who does not know that in advance is virtually unable to do that. A similar mistake I myself made regarding Estlandia: I genuinely believed I am dealing with a new user who came with fresh viewpoint and who is not burdened with old relations with the members of the dispute, however, as we can see I was wrong. on "attempting to solicit participation on notice boards from perceived friendly editors[156]"[edit]Although it was not my initial intention, as soon as Martin decided to discuss the diff he has taken from my talk page, let me tell few words about this story. It was an incident over collaboration of the Latvians with Nazi Germany during the Holocaust. A user Vecrumba misinterpreted my words thereby presenting me as a supporter of weird Nazi racial theory. I requested him to stop and apologize (he stopped, but didn't apologize; since I have no plans to report Vecrumba, I beg you to forgive me for not providing the diffs). Vecrumba was very emotional during this dispute, and, I believe, Igny correctly concluded that it was that dispute which was a subject of the discussion on the Vecrumba's talk page, where Sander Sade mentioned some "racist troll" (obviously, my humble person). Igny correctly assumed that it is not in my habits to read Vecrumba's talk page, and, as soon as my humble person is being discussed there I should know about that. I see no canvassing in that.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:12, 19 June 2012 (UTC) A response to My Very Best Wishes[edit]You have probably noticed that I came here only because I was notified about this case, and because my humble person, as well as the posts from my talk page, are being discussed here. What is not clear for me is your allegations about my tendency to bring the EEML case argument "in every dispute" (your wording). I am especially surprised to read that because I wrote nothing about the user:Biophys, whose account was deleted, and the user page user:Hodja Nasreddin has been created instead of that. The Hodja Nasreddin's page now is a redirect to user:My very best wishes. BTW, when the user My very best wishes firstly joined the EE related discussion I genuinely believed that some new unbiased editor came, who is not burdened with old sympathies and antipathies, and whose fresh opinion should be listened. I realised that apparently I am dealing with old Biophys just by accident, and I am pretty sure some other users have been mislead too. However, I was not intended to talk about your name change, because I believed that you, as well as other EEML members whom I respect abandoned your old battleground and partisan behaviour. Regrettably, I was not right. He who lives in a glass house shouldn't throw stones. I respectfully request you (i) to explain the details of your previous involvement, and, if you want to continue in the same vein, (ii) to add an explanation on your userpage about your connection with the user Biophys.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:01, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
I requested MVBW to apologise on 19th of June 2012. He replied to Malik78 on 20st of June 2012, which mean he is active, and, most probably, has read and understood my request. However, I still see no apologies. I can wait two more days. If no evidences will be presented that I have a habit to refer to the EEML incident frequently, or no apologies will be brought (and the statement "What bothers me is the desire of Paul to bring the "EEML" argument in every dispute" retracted), I'll request for sanctions against MVWB. My second comment is about VM's proposal "to go back to the case pages and update the old usernames to new usernames so they'd align". Frankly speaking, I saw no need in that until the very recent incidents, because I saw no problems with VM, MVBW (and I even didn't know anything about Estlandia). With regard to the latter, let me point out that Igny was very surprised by his last two reverts, because Miacek was known for his integrity in many WP aspects. In connection to that, I would propose those users to decide by themselves: either they want the EEML/DIGWUREN cases to be updated as VM suggested, or they take a voluntary obligation do not interfere into the disputes where other ex-EEML members have already been involved and to act as a allegedly independent party. I will be equally satisfied with both outcomes. Re UUCN[edit]This new user has been declared to be a meatpuppet for several times, but this allegation was based solely on his own declaration ("I was invited to comment"). Per our policy, the term meatpuppet is derogatory and should be used with care. If UUCN is a meatpuppet (btw, whose meatpuppet he is? there are no meatpuppets without "meatmasters") those who throw such accusations should provide some evidences. The fact that UUCN openly declared that he was invited does not mean he was invited by some of the participants of the dispute. However, as far as I understand, UUCN expresses the opinion that does not coincide with opinion of other participants, so it is highly unlikely that he was invited by any of the current participants of the dispute. I definitely didn't invite him, and, as far as I understand, Igny also didn't do that. I found no explanation in the policy about the proper way to deal with a person who was invited by a third party. If policy says anything concrete about that, please, let me know. However, if policy says nothing about that, I expect everyone to stop label UUCN as a meatpuppet, and remove those statements from this thread. @Sander Sade[edit]Thanks. Forget about that. This incident doesn't deserve mention. I myself mentioned it only because I had to provide some explanations regarding the Nug's post. Without Nug, I would allow it to sink into oblivion.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:54, 20 June 2012 (UTC) Upon reading the DQ(ʞlɐʇ) 's post I found his analysis of the situation superficial and totally unsatisfactory.
Firstly, taking into account that the Occupation of the Baltic states has been fully protected for one month, the purpose of one week long Igny's block is totally obscure to me: even if we assume that Igny has been engaged in disruptive activity, article's protection made it physically impossible, so the block is fully punitive. @ Collect[edit]I concede I am not native English speaker, so I am not an expert here, but it that context "inform not to revert" is closer to "warn". In actuality, I advised Igny not to demonstrate the same battleground behaviour as his opponents did. This was a friendly advice, and by quoting me you implicitly misinterpreted my intentions. BTW, I didn't "warn" you because I know that is senseless.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:15, 21 June 2012 (UTC) Update[edit]User Igny has been recently blocked by an administrator for a week. This was possibly achieved by off-wiki contacting an administrator because their previous attempt to report Igny resulted in that the page was protected and no action was taken against Igny [157]. This is obviously one-sided decision because the other party also participated in edit-war and given their off-line coordination they should be fairly counted as one user for purposes of 3RR. It would be possibly fair to treat this group as one editor in the future to prevent further crowd edit-warring.--UUNC (talk) 17:48, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Comment by previously involved My very best wishes[edit]Illegal coordination[edit]In the last round of edit war [160] Igny reverted edits by four participants: Toddy1, Estlandia, Collect and Nug. All of them are experienced editors and active in this subject area for a long time. They know how to watch pages; there is nothing else behind it. Let's not bring the "EEML" argument in every dispute because this mailing list does not exist for more than two years, to my knowledge. Bringing back old grudges for years is disruptive. Let's drop the stick (just as I said before to Paul [161]). Let's WP:FORGIVE. The only example of probable illegal coordination was UUNC (talk · contribs) who came by request to contribute to a single highly controversial dispute. According to the policy, "recruiting new editors to influence decisions on Wikipedia is prohibited", but that is exactly what had happened, according to his own first statement and editing pattern. While looking at his first statement, one should also look at the nature of the dispute (the previous comment that appears in the same diff) and at the statement itself. This is a typical WP:SOAP statement unsupported by any refs. It compares the treatment of Russians by Balts with treatment of Jews by Nazi. One should also look at further actions by UUNC [162]. He immediately goes to three administrative noticeboards: 3RR, ANI and AE, specifically to "influence decisions on Wikipedia" by supporting Igny. He even tells that he is a more experienced wikifighter than Igny [163]. I do not think we need another experienced wikifighter in this subject area. He most probably came from Russian wikipedia. Who exactly recruited him is not really important. Usually this is someone who edits the same page, has the same POV, and was engaged in discussion at the moment of recruitment (per WP:DUCK), but who knows? Igny[edit]If anything, Igny simply fought against WP:Consensus of four editors, and he was correctly blocked on 3RR. According to the policy, the consensus is established by the entire process of editing, not only on the article talk page. And there is no doubts that behavior by Igny qualifies as WP:DE (see diffs by Collect). @UUNC. No, template "NPOV" in not designed to fight against CONSENSUS. WP:Consensus is our central policy that must always be respected. Nether it is designed as "a badge of shame" (see here), but it was used exactly as the "badge of shame" by Igny and some others over a long period of time. My very best wishes (talk) 21:13, 19 June 2012 (UTC) As about this your question, one of them was indeed indefinitely blocked for sockpuppetry. My very best wishes (talk) 02:12, 22 June 2012 (UTC) P.S. I just was going to leave [164], but saw this AE discussion and decided to help since I know all involved contributors, even though I did not interact with them for the last few months (except Malik78 who I did not expect to appear). I would like to apologize if any of my comments above can be viewed as unfair or unhelpful. My very best wishes (talk) 22:40, 20 June 2012 (UTC) Names of users[edit]New names of participants should be recorded, unless they are already recorded in specific cases where these users have been sanctioned - please check. My very best wishes (talk) 03:19, 22 June 2012 (UTC) Comment by Malick78[edit]
Comment by Vecrumba[edit]The allegations of some sort of "POV shift" to the [implied] nationalist side is a deflection from the escalation of ever more fantastical statements of alleged historical facts and inappropriate and inflammatory apples and oranges comparisons pertaining to the Soviet occupation of the Baltic states, e.g., Truman killed more innocent Japanese in one fell swoop than Stalin killed in all the Baltics—"Yes, Stalin occupied the Baltic states, but Truman bombed Tokyo and Hiroshima (where more innocent civilian died).", spilling over from prior and parallel discussion at Talk:World War II and other Latvia in WWII fighting against the Soviet Union, "an Ally," related article discussions. Quite frankly, I can only hope that the feedback that I've simply been misunderstanding is correct. The alleged title issue at the heart of the alleged dispute here (Igny, tagging) is a red herring for reasons which have been discussed ad absurdum in the past, short version:
Rehashing past contentions of POV when nothing has changed and consensus is therefore unlikely to change is not constructive editorial behavior. And on top of the provocations already in play, UUNC's "invited" participation has only sharpened the alleged "conflict" with UUNC's pushing of blatantly false Soviet historiography. It is exactly this sort of pointless conflict (except, IMO, for the purpose of conflict) that has driven many knowledgeable and superior editors on the Baltics away from Wikipedia. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 04:13, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
Comment by Sander Säde[edit]I am sorry for not responding sooner - I was away, giving a few lectures in Tartu. My comment was not aimed at or about Igny or Paul Siebert - the sole purpose of the far more extreme language than I use normally was to make sure Vecrumba notices and understands my warning. It is no secret that Vecrumba (or any other editor, really) will lose his calm if continuously baited, a tactic used against him semi-successfully before. I saw a worrying degradation in Vecrumba's tone in several ongoing discussions - and furthermore, an obvious sock (or self-proclaimed meatpuppet) popped up. So I decided to warn him, in hopes we would not have to endure another round of AE - and yet, here we go again... Paul - I sincerely apologize for any anguish I might have caused to you. I would never call you a racist troll. We have our differences of opinion, but I've never doubted your editorial integrity. I will leave this message also to your talk, to make sure you'll get it. @ T. Canens[edit]Do you really believe no tag teaming (e.g. WP:NINJA) took place in this case? In addition, you mentioned WP:ARBEE, but what about WP:EEML? I believe, however, that addition of notations is not required for the ex-EEML members whose behaviour caused noone's concern. Regarding UUNC, do you think his edit history is long enough to judge if he is an SPA? If he is a meatpuppet, then who is a "meatmaster"?--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:28, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
UUNC as a sock/meatpuppet[edit]Upon meditation, I came to a conclusion that this issue deserves more detailed analysis. Frankly speaking, sock/meatpuppetry is quite possible in that case, and I would like to consider possible sockmasters. Although I know that UUNC is not my sock, my assurances are insufficient, so I must behave as a devil's advocate and assume my bad faith. Therefore, the first possible sockmaster is user:Paul Siebert, other candidates are TFD, user:Greyhood, and user:Igny. Other past or present participants either share the opposite point of view or they are not knowledgeable enough (whereas it is possible to imitate the lack of knowledge, the opposite is unlikely). So...
In addition to that, I got one more evidence that UUNC is neither a sock nor meatpuppet of any of above users. The evidence is this UUNC post [173]. In this post, UUNC cites the interview with a Russian author Khudoley. According to Nug, Khudoley fully supports the Baltic thesis about occupation (see Nug's posts [174], [175], and many others), and that was a strong argument. However, in the interview Khudoley states that he does not support a thesis about occupation. Obviously, had TFD, Greyhood, Igny or I known about this Khudoley's opinion, we would immediately use this fact as a counter-argument. Base on that I conclude that UUNC is a new person, who acts independently from previous participants of the dispute. With regard to meatpuppetry, the only argument we currently have is UUNC's own declaration. However, taking into account that no RfCs or votes had been open that could be affected by UUNC's vote, and that NNUC didn't join a revert war [176], I see no reason to speak about his meatpuppetry. I strongly disagree with T Canens on that account, and respectfully request him to comment on this my post.--Paul Siebert (talk) 02:38, 22 June 2012 (UTC) @ EdJohnson. I would like to see concrete evidences against UUNC (other than his awkward initial statement). The accusation in sockpuppetry is supposed to be supported by SPI, but whose sock he is? Can you point at least at one candidate? Regarding meatpuppetry, there were no RfCs, no votes, no revert wars UUNC joined (in contrast to Estlandia). UUNC tries to resolve disputes over sources at WP:RSN and he obeys the community verdict. What was his concrete violation? Please, explain.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:02, 22 June 2012 (UTC) Result concerning Sander Säde[edit]AGK's claim "in enforcing an arbitration decision, we rarely make copious assumptions of good faith" with respect to civility issues does not align with past practice. For example in the past when I was personally attacked as a "right wing extremist" espousing "ethnic nationalist POV" and that person refused to apologise, I brought that person to this page[177] and after a long discussion he finally apologised to me after the admins here threatened to sanction him. The admins here accepted that apology in good faith and the matter was closed without action. Sander apologised for his remarks here at AE[178] and at Paul Siebert's talk page[179], which Paul accepted[180], before the first admin arrived here to comment[181]. I do not understand the basis of this inconsistency, accepting User:The Four Deuces's apology in good faith after much arm twisting while rejecting User:Sander Säde freely volunteered apology before any admin intervention. While both have previously be formally noticed under WP:ARBEE, only TFD has actually been previously sanctioned with an indefinite topic ban subsequently lifted, yet his apology was accepted but Sander's apparently not. Given that someone has taken note of AGK's comment in another case below, is AGK speaking on the Arbitration Committee's behalf when he made this comment? What aspect of Sander's edit history, which consists mainly of reverting vandalism[182], compelled AGK as Arbitrator to apparently intervene in an area that normally is subject to the patrolling admin's discretion? --Nug (talk) 22:31, 22 June 2012 (UTC) Result concerning Igny[edit]
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