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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Cirt (talk) 15:13, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Janos Boros

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Janos Boros (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Likely fails WP:POLITICIAN. He was deputy mayor, not mayor, and while he was a city councillor, did not receive significant press coverage. 3 passing mentions in Evenimentul Zilei, 4 in Cotidianul, 5 in Adevărul, 2 from Mediafax, 0 in Jurnalul Naţional, 0 in Ziua, and 1 in Clujeanul - a newspaper from his own city. Biruitorul Talk 19:57, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

He was the only politician to have served 2 consecutive and successful terms as the vice mayor since Democracy dawned upon Romania.The romanian press has been good sometimes, lukewarm, and mostly bad to him - it is quite obvious as he is from a Hungarian minority. His popularity should not be guaged by the anti-hungarian romanian news media but the Hungarian media. He has not just 12 media mentions as claimed.To understand his popularity and the coverage he got, we should look at the popular hungarian press, Innumerable mentions in "Szabadság", More numerous mention in another Hungarian daily "Krónika", Even more in "umsz" and "Hungarian Human Rights Foundation" citing the effort Janos Boros has made towards upliftment of the Hungarian community in Romania, are but a few. These prove that while it is true that Janos Boros was held in high esteem by the Hungarians and the Hungarian media in Romania as their representative in politics(and hence passes the WP:POLITICIAN muster) and was given significant exposure, the Romanian media ignored and concentrated more on the Romanian politicians. Janos Boros is a noted figure among Hungarians and definitely deserves mention. Thus the attempt to delete his page holds no logic.(Hangakirantalk) 04:15, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • 1. The only two-term Vice Mayor of Cluj, or in all of Romania? And in any case, is there a source indicating that might be notable? (Also, Romania was a democracy prior to 1938...)
  • 2. Do you have anything to support your claim that the Romanian media is anti-Hungarian? After all, if we search Romanian newspapers for other ethnic Hungarian politicians, for László Tőkés we get 542 hits in Jurnalul Naţional, 306 hits in Adevărul, 1910 hits in Ziua, and so on. Béla Markó gets 210 in Jurnalul Naţional, 1740 in Adevărul and 6240 in Ziua. Even more obscure politicians like Jenő Szász get 67 mentions in Jurnalul Naţional, 116 in Adevărul and 98 in Ziua. So it's absurd to say that just because a politician is a Magyar, the Romanian press chooses not to cover him. Other Hungarian politicians get ample coverage.
  • 3. Of course, mere mention in a paper is not enough to show notability - coverage must, per WP:GNG, "address the subject directly in detail". If you can actually translate and adapt that coverage into a legitimate article, great.
  • 4. I'm not claiming Boros is irrelevant, but Tőkés, Markó and Szász (and Borbély, and Zsolt Nagy, and Winkler, and Asztalos) are far more the "representative in politics" of Hungarians in Romania than Boros is. Let's not inflate his importance beyond Cluj. Naturally, the Romanian media focused more on Romanians, who are 90% of the population as opposed to 6%. Again, it may be that notability is to be found in Szabadság, Krónika and so on, but the burden of proof is on you to do that, and so far, if we are to judge simply on the article as it stands and what political offices he has held, notability is not yet demonstrated. - Biruitorul Talk 01:39, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Does Janos Boros satisfy WP:GNG:

  • 1. Significant coverage has been indicated in the Hungarian and Romanian media sources above. As a noted politicians, the coverage is in terms of direct relevance to Janos Boros in his interviews, his point of view and activities noted and published by the press. This is as directly relevant as it can get. WP:GNG also states: Significant coverage is more than trivial but may be less than exclusive. Janos Boros as the vice mayor was bound to be mentioned in most of the news alongside other political entities, as administration and politics is not a one person game. So he got coverage which was definitely more than trivial and sometimes less than exclusive. If you read the the coverage links in the Hungarian media above and even many of the Romanian media given below of Janos Boros, you would see this to be true. Hence WP:GNG is perfectly satisfied.
  • 2. Then the WP:GNG continues to mention, notability in Wikipedia indicates verifiability and Substantial coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject constitutes verifiable evidence of notability. The Hungarian media coverage is both independent and verifiable and hence their reporting on Janos Boros makes him notable.
  • 3. Whether the Romanian media is anti-Hungarian or not is a matter of perspective and not the point in question here. The actual question is whether Janos Boros got "Significant Coverage" as per the WP:GNG which he did through the Hungarian media, which is independent and verifiable.
  • 4. Whether Janos Boros is more relevant or not than another politician is also not the question here. "Significant coverage" and "Notability" which are proven beyond doubt determine acceptance. As to the aspect of finding mention in Romanian media, 61 mentions in Evenimentul Zilei, 37 mentions in Adevărul, 41 mentions in Ziua, 200 mentions in Clujeanul - a newspaper from his own city, 128 mentions in hotnews.ro are significant.
  • 5. So, last but not the least, Romanian media being unfavourable to Janos Boros is only in comparison to the Hungarian Media. If you look at the Romanian media coverage he has got, that by itself would be enough to satisfy the norms of the WP:GNG. But if you factor in the coverage in the independent Hungarian press as well, it becomes not just significant but conclusive.

This IS "Significant" and "Notable" enough to put this debate to rest. (Hangakirantalk) 06:13, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete I don't see how this passes either WP:GNG or WP:POLITICIAN. The coverage that he got in the press is, as far as I can tell, almost exclusively owed to a local corruption scandal which implicated him (an incident which, tellingly, is not even covered by the article). The news is of marginal interest even locally (in Cluj County, that is), and the text, which is most likely promotional, is horribly written - beginning with the title. This is a quick way to make oneself look important, not an encyclopedic topic. Dahn (talk) 12:44, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Dahn said it far better than I can. At most, maybe an article on these scandals and a redirect, but even that pushes the bounds of notability considerably - Vartanza (talk) 02:46, 13 June 2009 (UTC).[reply]
  • Weak keep, I'm not familiar with Romanian politics, but this Boros is mentioned several times on quite significant websites, and not only about the scandal, but in articles about local politics, Hungarian minority, etc. (Look for him in Google using the Hungarian name order "Boros János" and add his city's Hungarian name "Kolozsvár" since his name is not that rare; you will see how often is he mentioned.) – Alensha talk 10:32, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • strong keep. He seem to pass notability criteria, at least google see plenty of hits[1][2], and I have found more references in Hungarian media than I had the time to read (and not about any scandal but usual political agendas). I think it's not the topic whether Romanian newspapers do or don't like to talk about politicians of whatever nationality but whether the person has been mentioned by independent media, be it national or international. All notability related comments above seem to be based on Romanian language local media only, which is of course just one side of the story. --grin ✎ 15:24, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Have changed the content with updated references to comply with both WP:GNG and WP:POLITICIAN. The references in Hungarian media if read properly is proof enough of his Notability and is a noted Politician in Transilvania. Determining the Notability of a minority Hungarian politician based exclusively on Romanian media presentation will definitely lead to a biased view. [[In addition to this, searched for other Romanian(Listed below) Vice Mayors and politicians to see if they have pages on Wikipedia, they do. Most of them have not served amount of tenure Janos Boros has. If they are considered Notable and qualify to be WP:POLITICIAN, then so should Janos Boros. The list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mioara_Mantale - A Subprefect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Rene_Yankwich - A US federal judge of Romanian origin
http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mircea-Anton_Silva%C5%9F - Was a Vice mayor of the Forest Filipestii
http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovidiu_Tudorici - Vice Mayor of Câmpulung Moldovenesc.
http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberiu_Dekany - Vice Mayor of Arad
Hangakiran (talk) 17:00, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep. Not sure I agree with Dahn's assessment that this fails WP:GNG and WP:POLITICIAN. Under Politician we have: "Major local political figures who have received significant press coverage. Generally speaking, mayors are likely to meet this criterion, as are members of the main citywide government or council of a major metropolitan city." So he's a member of the citywide government of a major metropolitan city (third largest in Romania). He's received significant press coverage, as others have found. How is that not meeting the criteria? The argument here seems to stem from the question "What is significant?". Note that the WP policy says "more than trivial but may be less than exclusive." The fact that the articles Dahn is talking about doesn't give exclusive attention to Boros is not a reason to delete the Wikipedia article. The only criteria the "significant press coverage" has to meet is that it gives details directly about Boros. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 17:14, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. in between a lot of hundreds piliticians there are only 14-15 hungarians, so they are downrepresented in this category of EN WP. See Category:Romanian_politicians. On the other hand we get a few tousand results in the google for the following searches: "Boros János" Kolozsvár (3 420), "Boros János" alpolgármester (2 190), "Boros Janos" Cluj (2 940), "Boros Janos" viceprimar (803), "Boros János" RMDSZ (3 050), "Boros Janos" UDMR (1530).

Against for it there are a lot of existing Romanian politicians in EN WP with more smaller number of results. For ex. "Gheorghe Taşcă" (286), "Gheorghe Mironescu" (724), "Emil Haţieganu" (1230), "Ştefan Voitec" (1300), "Maria Antonescu" (1770). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aakmaros (talk • contribs) 22:52, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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