Talk:El Fasher massacre

Massacre appears to be ongoing

Would it be best to label this event as "ongoing" due to continued reports of massacres within and around El Fasher? 169.139.8.223 (talk) 21:57, 29 October 2025 (UTC)

Done Pencilceaser123 (talk) 23:02, 29 October 2025 (UTC)

Requested move 5 November 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. I'm about to post this to the main page. It makes eminent sense that the massacre name aligns with the recent renaming of the locality. If anyone disagrees with this snow closure, please open a new move request. Schwede66 03:06, 6 November 2025 (UTC)

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Al-Fashir massacre → El Fasher massacre – Consistency with El Fasher page, see discussion at Talk:El Fasher#Requested move 29 October 2025 Pencilceaser123 (talk) 22:14, 5 November 2025 (UTC)

Move for consistency Placeholderer (talk) 23:07, 5 November 2025 (UTC)

Move for consistency Shubhsamant09 (talk) 00:30, 6 November 2025 (UTC)

Support per above Bremps... 03:02, 6 November 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:El Fasher massacre/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Pencilceaser123 (talk · contribs) 23:40, 10 November 2025 (UTC)

Reviewer: Grnrchst (talk · contribs) 10:22, 14 November 2025 (UTC)

I'm going to have to quick-fail this, as there is no way of this article meeting the GA criteria for stability. This is an ongoing event and the article receives substantial changes from day-to-day. More than 10,000 bytes have been added in only the few days since this was nominated on 10 November 2025 (see diff), with massive changes and even whole new sections being added. This was an incredibly premature nomination. I would advise the nominator to wait at least until this is no longer an ongoing event receiving regular updates. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:22, 14 November 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Higher death toll then the article says?

There are people who say that the number is much higher then 10 000 and i wonder if anyone has a source so we can add it to the wiki article if its true, a YouTube Video tells me the highest number a source gives is 68 000 but i could not find it, do you guys see any sources? SteffoStefonion (talk) 00:04, 18 November 2025 (UTC)

Here is a link to a CNN interview with Nathaniel Raymond, Executive Director at the Yale Humanitarian Research Lab: https://www.cnn.com/2025/11/03/tv/video/amanpour-sudan-nathaniel-raymond-hamid-khalafallah

Raymond said that the "velocity of killing" is comparable to the Rwandan genocide, and that there could be a death toll similar to two years of war in Gaza. Raymond also said that, at one point during the the ongoing massacre, his sources on the ground had reported a death toll of 1,200 by Monday morning, rising to 10,000 by Monday evening, but he believes that his sources were massacred by Tuesday as the death toll continued to rise.

Al Jazeera reported that Raymond told them that "more people could have died [in 10 days]… than have died in the past two years of the war in Gaza. That’s what we’re talking about. That’s not hyperbole." https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/11/4/rsf-digging-mass-graves-in-sudans-el-fasher-to-clean-up-massacre-expert Wsw248 (talk) 22:46, 19 November 2025 (UTC)

This is obviously concerning enough to the point it should be in the article, but how do we put it into the article? SteffoStefonion (talk) 22:48, 19 November 2025 (UTC)

Comparing to Gaza is a bit vague, especially given that the excess deaths in the Gaza genocide are estimated to be several times as great as the number of identified deaths.

I started a section on the Yale research released yesterday 22 November, and given notability by independent English-language Sudanese media, and put a brief repeat ref in the lead. The "2,500" estimate in the lead needs a source and a clarification of dates. Boud (talk) 17:52, 23 November 2025 (UTC)

Genocide in Wikivoice?

Are there sufficiently strong academic sources stating that this is a genocide? The genocide definition includes forced displacement in addition to killing, so the quarter of a million estimate together with genocidal intent might lead some academics to use the word directly, rather than just as "genocidal slaughter". Boud (talk) 17:56, 23 November 2025 (UTC)

Hi Boud, to the best of my knowledge, in order to call this genocide in wikivoice, we need to have enough good sources calling this a genocide, don't we? Lova Falk (talk) 11:26, 28 November 2025 (UTC)

Yes, since otherwise we would be doing WP:OR. That's why I'm asking if we have any good sources. So far I only see Eric Reeves using the term "genocidal slaughter", which is not as strong as "genocide". Though I do see that the first paragraph of #Experts, advocacy groups, and humanitarian organizations may have some info about the intentions of the perpetrators, which could be added to the #Motives section. If the intentions were related to intentionally destroying a part of an ethnic group, per the sources, then that would be encyclopedically relevant information. Whether or not they qualify as genocidal intent will depend on expert sources making or disagreeing with that interpretation.

For the record, the result of decisions made for this article, along with the past history of en.Wikipedia decision-making, may affect the writeup of a draft descriptive Wikipedia policy: WP:GENOCIDE#Per-event prior debates table that may eventually be proposed as an RfC for wider comment (here I'm reflecting my own bias as to what part of the current brainstorming page WP:GENOCIDE will be the most directly relevant to drafting a policy). Boud (talk) 13:15, 28 November 2025 (UTC)

Personally, it seems clear to me that it's a genocide, but finding good sources will be a lot more likely to lead to stable editing consensus than invoking WP:SKYBLUE. Boud (talk) 13:23, 28 November 2025 (UTC)

I am sorry, I misunderstood. I didn't understand you were asking if anybody had any good sources. No, they are hard to find. Lova Falk (talk) 17:17, 28 November 2025 (UTC)

Got a couple:

[1] In Sudan, genocidal massacres and mass expulsions were committed in the new civil war that began in 2023, six months before the Gaza war-genocide, between the Sudanese Armed Forces and the Rapid Support Forces (RSF). Many atrocities, especially in Darfur, were directed at the non-Arab Masalit people by the RSF and its al- lies the Janjaweed (though there's a degree of both-sides-ism)

[2] on April 15, 2023, a power struggle between the Sudanese Armed Forces and the Rapid Support Forces erupted into an ongoing genocide and war

JSTOR does have a bunch of "Research Reports", but those count as SPS for lack of editorial control I think (unlike, I think, book chapters posted on JSTOR?). Might be worth looking through the reports for subject-matter experts Placeholderer (talk) 18:25, 30 November 2025 (UTC)

If it helps Boud i found this sources referring to the events as genocide:

1.

https://sihanet.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Report-on-the-Situation-in-El-Fasher-North-Darfur-English.pdf

2.

https://sihanet.org/el-fasher-and-its-surroundings-face-endless-cycles-of-genocide-the-time-for-empty-rhetoric-is-over-the-time-to-act-is-now/

3.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewelinaochab/2025/10/29/the-fall-of-el-fasher-and-another-wave-of-atrocity-crimes-in-darfur/

ShoBDin (talk) 16:26, 3 December 2025 (UTC)

References

"Ceasefire discussions" section

Why is this a section in the article? Ceasefire content makes more sense to include at the article for the overall war—and it is there, broken up under Course of the war (though I don't think the setup there is great either). Why is this section hosted at a massacre article? Should we have a separate article for ceasefire/peace talks or something? Placeholderer (talk) 04:10, 24 November 2025 (UTC)

Hi Placeholderer, you are quite right that this article doesn't seem to be the correct place for this section. I am not so sure about a new article though - there are already so many articles about this war (still, I would not oppose a new article.) So if you find a good place to paste this information into, I would support this. Lova Falk (talk) 14:09, 25 November 2025 (UTC)

I've trimmed/moved it to the main war article for now Placeholderer (talk) 01:31, 27 November 2025 (UTC)

Splitting proposal: Refugee crisis

Considering the refugee crisis shows no signs of stopping, specifically being a result of those fleeing El Fasher, I propose we split El Fasher massacre#Refugee crisis → Timeline of the El Fasher massacre refugee crisis. I am working to expand this section particularly, and there are many many sources to cover to continue expanding the section. I've only scratched the surface as of present. JulDer Wiki (talk) 20:24, 30 November 2025 (UTC)

I'd advocate for a prose page instead of a timeline, and in this case there is Sudanese refugee crisis#Internally-displaced people which hasn't been updated since 2023. At the very least, the recent crisis with El Fasher would make sense as a subsection there Placeholderer (talk) 23:50, 30 November 2025 (UTC)

My apologies. I should've proposed a prose page instead. El Fasher massacre refugee crisis should work. I would agree with you but as I mentioned before, this large influx (to Tawila primarily) is virtually all from IDPs escaping El Fasher. I feel like the subsection to the Sudanese refugee crisis page would be best kept as is, especially as it covers all IDPs from around Sudan. Of course we have to consider that it hasn't received updates in a while, but there are certainly article which cover refugee movements in southern Sudan and other cities at risk of further killings/displacement. JulDer Wiki (talk) 00:17, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

My recommendation would just be El Fasher refugee crisis, but you're right in that it's definitely deserving of its own page. I do think, with the new page, a subsection should be added under the IDP section in the broader refugee article with a Main article: El Fasher refugee crisis thing, and there should probably be such a section here too, but that's a secondary point.

TLDR yes I support creating a new page for this Placeholderer (talk) 00:40, 1 December 2025 (UTC)