Talk:Horvat Rimmon

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Horvat Rimmon

• ... that an ancient Jewish "love charm" from Horvat Rimmon (pictured) in Israel preserves a magical formula that reappears in medieval manuscripts from Egypt and continued to be used by Jews into the 20th century?

• Source: Werlin, Steven H. (2015). "The Judean Shephelah: Rimmon". Ancient Synagogues of Southern Palestine, 300-800 C.E. Brill. pp. 222–236. The text of the amulet—familiar from the extant corpus of late antique amulets and incantation bowls—is characterized as a “love charm” or “erotic incantation.” ... The last line of the amulet includes four or five characters that bear a vague resemblance to a sloppy form of paleo-Hebrew or Greek. These are likely “magic signs or symbols"... "The five extant names of angels in lines 1–2 are each enclosed in irregularly inscribed circular frames." (p. 232–233) Saar, Ortal-Paz (2017). Jewish Love Magic: From Late Antiquity to the Middle Ages. Leiden and Boston: Brill. ISBN 978-90-04-34788-5. The discovery of the magical potsherd from Horvat Rimmon and its later parallels. The shard, dated to the fifth or sixth century, bears an abjuration for obtaining love whose phrasing continues to appear in medieval recipes from the Cairo Genizah. The items exemplifies the continuity of practices and formulae from the Byzantine period into the Middle Ages, and also the high fidelity of this continuity – even some of the magical signs accompanying the adjuration formula were preserved through the centuries. Interestingly, the Horvat Rimmon spell continued to prevail up to the twentieth century, as attested in a study by Reginald Campbell Thmpson on the folklore of Iraqi Jews. (p. 30)

• ALT1: ... that a late-antique love amulet from Horvat Rimmon (pictured) in Israel bears an Aramaic erotic incantation whose formula continues to appear in medieval Jewish manuscripts? Source: Werlin, Steven H. (2015). "The Judean Shephelah: Rimmon". Ancient Synagogues of Southern Palestine, 300-800 C.E. Brill. pp. 231–233; Saar, Ortal-Paz (2017). Jewish Love Magic: From Late Antiquity to the Middle Ages. Leiden and Boston: Brill. ISBN 978-90-04-34788-5. p. 30
• ALT2: ... that an ancient amulet discovered in Horvat Rimmon (pictured) bears an "erotic incantation" in which its owner invokes angels to make another person love him? Source: Werlin, Steven H. (2015). ["The Judean Shephelah: Rimmon"]. Ancient Synagogues of Southern Palestine, 300-800 C.E. Brill. pp. 231–233
• ALT3: ... that the last line of a Jewish "love charm" from Horvat Rimmon (pictured) consists of enigmatic "magic signs" that resemble distorted paleo-Hebrew or Greek letters? Source: Werlin, Steven H. (2015). ["The Judean Shephelah: Rimmon"]. Ancient Synagogues of Southern Palestine, 300-800 C.E. Brill. pp. 231–233
• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Ednyfed Fychan

Created by Mariamnei (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 17 past nominations.

Mariamnei (talk) 19:11, 6 December 2025 (UTC).

• I will review this. Viriditas (talk) 23:16, 6 December 2025 (UTC)
  • Comments: Infobox: I notice that you aren't using any of the dating fields in {{Infobox ancient site}}. Is this an oversight? Lead: First paragraph of the lead is fine. Second paragraph is confusing with its use of commas and long sentences. Geography: I don't recall seeing "Kibbutz Lahav" in italics like this before. Since you are using it as a place name in uppercase, I don't think it uses italics; I could be wrong. Identification: The name Rimmon possibly moved from Tel Halif to Horvat Rimmon during the later Second Temple period. I think I get what you are trying to say, but the notion of a "name" moving made me laugh. Is there another way to say it? Synagogue: I don't like how you bunch the two images so close together here below the infobox, but that's my own personal pet peeve. Section text is slightly redundant, but unlike others, I like this style as it "writes down one level" from technical expertise for general readers. Not enough editors do this, so I think the redundancy is needed. Note that other editors vehemently disagree with this style and will change it. ...a rectangular plastered niche high in the north wall (possibly for Torah storage)... If this was the aron kodesh was it facing Jerusalem? Was that practice even around that early? Is Jerusalem to the northeast of that site? ... a central 3 × 3 m "carpet" of pavers engraved with five rosettes and a seven-branched menorah... I believe this has been found at other sites and is common? Is it mosaic-like? Burial Caves and Subterranean Complexes: Shouldn't this title be in lowercase? Research History: Should be lowercase. Repeats the "Jacob son of Rabbi" ossuary find for a second time from the previous section. I've had to deal with this in my own writing and the way I approach it is to provide different info about the same item in the second instance. For example, you are repeating it here because it is a notable find, so explain what makes it notable. Hook image: I think you are running into the same problem with the hook image we talked about last time. I see plenty of images in the current article (and possibly elsewhere) that display better for DYK. It's your choice, of course. Viriditas (talk) 00:58, 7 December 2025 (UTC)

• Thanks very much for the detailed review, Vinditas. I've gone through each of your points and made the requested revisions. Responses are below. Mariamnei (talk) 22:38, 7 December 2025 (UTC)

• I’m not sure where the "dating" field is supposed to appear. I didn't see them anywhere. I usually stick to "epochs" when it applies.
• I rewrote the second paragraph of the lead and split it into two (identification vs. finds) so it reads more cleanly now.
• Since the word 'kibbutz' is in Hebrew (a form of collective settlement unique to Israel), I assumed it should be italicized like other non-English words we use.
• I agree "name moved" sounds a bit awkward! Changing the text to say The name Rimmon appears to have shifted from Tel Halif to Horvat Rimmon during the later Second Temple period. instead.
• I adjusted the image placement and removed one to avoid overcrowding under the infobox.
• On the niche: it's in the north/northeast wall, and Jerusalem is roughly northeast of the site, so an alignment is possible. But the excavator stresses that Synagogue I is poorly preserved and doesn't have clear evidence of a Torah shrine. Since architectural niches oriented toward Jerusalem don't securely appear until the 4th century as far as I know, identifying this one as an aron kodesh is possible but not more than that really. The report itself only suggests it may have been used for Torah storage.
• The synagogue's carpet is not a mosaic. It is carved directly into large limestone pavers. The motifs (rosettes, menorah) are common across late-antique synagogues from Palaestina, but the medium (engraved pavers instead of tessera mosaics) is less typical.
• I've fixed capitalization for all sections.
• Regarding the inscribed ossuary - I'm yet to find a source that describes why this name is "unusual" (as Werlin put it), so to avoid repetition, I removed the second mention and kept only the factual note that the ossuary was found then.
• For the hook image, see below. Mariamnei (talk) 22:38, 7 December 2025 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: See comments in above section. Minor changes requested. Pic is clear at 120px, but just shows a flat, ruined expanse and will likely not be used. Consider replacing the image with something more visually complex that shows a variety of elements within the landscape. Another way to do this is to instead focus on something close-up or minimalist, that forces the eye to focus on a single thing. No real preference for any the hooks, but obviously ALT0 is super long and will probably not be used. I'm also not a fan of scare quotes within hooks, and prefer that people paraphrase instead, which ALT1 does just fine. Some of the hook wording comes off as verbose, so I assume others will call for changes. Viriditas (talk) 01:15, 7 December 2025 (UTC)

• @Viriditas: Thanks so much for your review, it really strengthened the article. I believe I've addressed all of the requested changes. I also revised the wording for several of the alts; when you have a moment, please take a look. As for the image choice, I'm weighing a few options and would love your thoughts:

• an image with more elements: wall, paved floor, green hill, blue sky with clouds
• a black-and-white architectural fragment pictured in 1956
• another view of the same fragment
• a column

Please let me know if anything else needs adjusting. Mariamnei (talk) 23:08, 7 December 2025 (UTC)

Kibbutz Lahav, as you are using it, is a proper name. You can see examples of how Kibbutz X is used this way over at Israel National Trail. Italics aren't used when we use it this way. Since kibbutz is a common noun in English, it doesn't require italicization, although others might disagree. Same thing with menorah. No italics used in English for that term. I'm also not a fan of scare quotes like the kind used around "magic signs". Although I'm uncertain, I think the alternative to using scare quotes is to refer to it as Jewish magical inscriptions, without scare quotes, like the kind used in the article on Jewish magical papyri. If that term (or any other) is accurate here, that would work, as it contextualizes the idea within religion, negating the need for the scare quotes in the first place. Viriditas (talk) 02:57, 8 December 2025 (UTC)

@Viriditas: Thanks for the clarification. I've de-italicized both menorah and kibbutz accordingly. Regarding the terminology, I'm not sure that "Jewish magical inscriptions" is appropriate here, since the "signs" in question typically appear within inscriptions. You can think of them as pseudo-letters or symbolic graphemes. I haven't yet found a source that uses a standardized term for them, but for now I've replaced "magic signs" with magical characters, which I believe better reflects their role, though without using scare quotes. Mariamnei (talk) 07:33, 8 December 2025 (UTC)

Regarding the infobox, I expected to see |Built=Late 3rd century CE|Abandoned=Mid-7th century CE. Viriditas (talk) 21:30, 8 December 2025 (UTC)

I added it and linked to charaktêres. You don't need scare quotes for love charms in your hooks. I will approve all hooks, however, I really think you are burying the lead here. The ultimate hook for this article would consist of the recipe for the love charm, which is conspicuously absent in the "Love amulet" section (doesn't say to throw it in the fire and burn it, only alludes to it in the spell text; in other words the connection isn't made for the reader, and that would make a great hook). It would also include the surviving image of the clay sherds and erotic spell which is held by the Israel Antiquities Authority and has been published in several books, most notably Ancient Jewish Magic (2008) by Gideon Bohak. Viriditas (talk) 22:41, 8 December 2025 (UTC)

@Viriditas: I would love to include an image of the charm, but I don't see on Wikimedia Commons or otherwise clearly released under a free license. Any ideas? Frankly I don't have much experience with image copyright at all.

By the way, the article now explicitly mentions that the spell is thrown into the fire as part of the ritual (also citing Bohak's 2008 book). How do the following ALTs look?

• ALT4: ... that a late-antique Jewish love charm from Horvat Rimmon includes an erotic incantation instructing the user to burn the spell to make the desired person love them?
• ALT5: ... that a love amulet from Horvat Rimmon records an erotic incantation invoking angels and directing the user to burn the spell to gain another person's affection?

Mariamnei (talk) 11:37, 9 December 2025 (UTC)

Good work. I will see if I can upload a quality image and get back to you. Viriditas (talk) 23:08, 9 December 2025 (UTC)

I found 47 records on the IAA website, but they are not easy to look through. Working my way through them now. Viriditas (talk) 23:27, 9 December 2025 (UTC)

Well, that did not pan out. But here's what I have so far: I found three sources that use the image of the sherds: Ancient Jewish Magic (2008) by Gideon Bohak,[1] a Hebrew-only article on Ynet, [2], and the book Early Jewish Magic: Research, Method, Sources (2010) in Hebrew by Yuval Harari (later published in English as Jewish Magic Before The Rise Of Kabbalah, 2017).[3] The Ynet article has the only known digital version of the full image, and probably the highest quality we have so far.[4] According to the relevant copyright rules, "Copyright in a work in which the State is the first owner of the copyright lasts for 50 years from the date of its making.[2007-2011 Sec.42] Images distributed by the Israeli Government Press Office are copyrighted." For example, researcher David Alon at the Israel Authority of Antiquaries made a salvage excavation in 1976. If these sherd photos are from that time, then they would be free as soon as January 1, 2026 (I think). Do you know when they were discovered? I'm not sure how to ID the find. As far as I can tell it is, "858 | 559-λ 138528". Viriditas (talk) 01:21, 10 December 2025 (UTC)

I requested help here. Viriditas (talk) 08:53, 10 December 2025 (UTC)

Thank you, Viriditas. I'm pretty sure the amulet was discovered no earlier than 1978 (As far as I know, it was found by Amos Kloner, during his excavations of the synagogue, rather than in the tombs excavated by David Alon). Hopefully we can find a usable image. A good one would really elevate this DYK to the next level. Mariamnei (talk) 16:55, 10 December 2025 (UTC)