Template:Did you know nominations/Masoud El Amaratly
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. You can locate your hook here. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Launchballer talk 06:24, 11 November 2025 (UTC)
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Masoud El Amaratly
Recording of El Amaratly's folk singing
- ... that one of Iraq's most popular folk singers in the 1920s was Masoud El Amaratly (listen above), a transgender man? Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29702694 (scroll to bottom)
- Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Kaman-KalehöyĂŒk Archaeological Museum
- Comment: I'm not sure if DYK runs sound recordings, and if it does how you described it instead of (pictured) so advice welcome on that. I'm also happy to come up with other hooks.
Lajmmoore (talk) 06:50, 1 October 2025 (UTC).
- I am reviewing this. Looks to be a well written article on a very interesting subject. My DYK submission is also on Iraqi history, albeit from a few years earlier. Onceinawhile (talk) 23:45, 7 October 2025 (UTC)
- Hi @Lajmmoore: thank you for writing this article. Everything checks out and is good to go, with one question. The phrase "Mustarjil is a gender identity associated with Ahwari culture" (also used in the new Mustarjil article) has some strong connotations, and I wonder if they were intended by the underlying sources. A less surprising phrasing would be "Mustarjil is an Ahwari dialect word for [ ]". Please could you provide quotes from the two supporting sources (3+4) to allow confirmation? Onceinawhile (talk) 06:45, 8 October 2025 (UTC)
- thanks very much for the kind review, to respond to the request for information from the sources:
- Source 3 "Sexuality in the Middle East and North Africa: Contemporary Issues and ..." states "The exception is the mustarjil from southern Iraq who are described as women who adopt masculine gender expressions and social roles arguably out of "choice" or socioeconomic neccessity"
- Source 4: Reference Library of Arab America: Countries & ethnic groups, Algeria to Jordan " mustarjil is a woman who is " born with the heart of a man . " She lives and dresses like a man and is treated as a man by everyone else . Mustarjils are greatly respected . There are also men who live and dress as women."
- I don't think it's quite the same as saying its a dialect word, as the word mustarjil exists across Arabic dialects (as shown in its article), often as a slur. Lajmmoore (talk) 10:00, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for these sources. They don't appear to support the statement that it is a "gender identity associated with Ahwari culture". As you said, it is a word in Arabic, across many regions, not just Southern Iraq. It doesnât appear to be anything particularly unique, other than semantically. It looks like the arabic term is a polysemous word which maps against a wide semantic field of words in English. Onceinawhile (talk) 00:16, 10 October 2025 (UTC)
- If you take a look at the page history, you'll also see I've added in some additional references that further support the text:
- Source 2: "Within the context of the Ahwari community, Mustarjil was a common gender identity, where people assigned female at birth decide to live as a man after puberty, and this decision was generally accepted in the community."
- Source 1: description of mustarjil as gender identity - I've used up my google books views for this text, but the information is there across several pages.
- The term is used for both a gender identity of Ahwari culture, and used across dialects. Context is everything and in this context, its use as a term for a gender identity is specifically required Lajmmoore (talk) 12:26, 10 October 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you. Neither of these support "Mustarjil is a gender identity associated with Ahwari culture". I asked an AI to "interpret the phrase "X is a Y identity associated with Z culture"". It responded: "semantically, the phrase means: âX is a specific form of Y identity that originates from, is recognized within, or is shaped by Z culture.â"
- The sources confirm "recognized within", but not "originates from" or "shaped by". Onceinawhile (talk) 21:59, 10 October 2025 (UTC)
- To compromise, I've removed the sentence from the article Lajmmoore (talk) 07:23, 11 October 2025 (UTC)
- OK. I have made equivalent edits to the mustarjil article. Onceinawhile (talk) 10:32, 11 October 2025 (UTC)
- To compromise, I've removed the sentence from the article Lajmmoore (talk) 07:23, 11 October 2025 (UTC)
- If you take a look at the page history, you'll also see I've added in some additional references that further support the text:
- Thank you for these sources. They don't appear to support the statement that it is a "gender identity associated with Ahwari culture". As you said, it is a word in Arabic, across many regions, not just Southern Iraq. It doesnât appear to be anything particularly unique, other than semantically. It looks like the arabic term is a polysemous word which maps against a wide semantic field of words in English. Onceinawhile (talk) 00:16, 10 October 2025 (UTC)
| General: Article is new enough and long enough |
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| Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems |
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| Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation |
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| QPQ: Done. |
Overall: 
Onceinawhile (talk) 10:32, 11 October 2025 (UTC)