User talk:WhatamIdoing

If you expected a reply on another page and didn't get it, then please feel free to remind me. I've given up on my watchlist. You can also use the magic summoning tool if you remember to link my userpage in the same edit in which you sign the message.

Please add notes to the end of this page. If you notice the page size getting out of control (>100,000 bytes), then please tell me. I'll probably reply here unless you suggest another page for a reply. Thanks, WhatamIdoing

A barnstar for you!

	The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
	Just wanted to take a moment to say how much I appreciate your contributions! Helping me find my feet in medical topics, always standing up for new users in community discussions, keeping an eye on a large swath of important medical articles. Thanks for all you're doing :). —Femke 🐦 (talk) 19:41, 31 July 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind words. I am always happy to see what you're doing. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:41, 1 August 2025 (UTC)

I will second that, Cheers · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 17:04, 25 September 2025 (UTC)

PAYRATES

WP:PAYRATES. How do you like me now? :D ―Mandruss ☎ IMO. 11:57, 19 September 2025 (UTC)

I like it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:59, 19 September 2025 (UTC)

Timeless, forever relevant. Thx for your improvements. ―Mandruss ☎ IMO. 16:16, 19 September 2025 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind an example pay slip for United Kingdom - Salaried (Americentrism bad), but I wouldn't know how to do that. ―Mandruss ☎ IMO. 16:19, 19 September 2025 (UTC)

I don't know what the typical UK pay slip looks like, either.

I added a custom hatnote to Wikipedia:Scam warning. If you hate it, then remove it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:41, 20 September 2025 (UTC)

I hate it, so I removed it. It's a humorous essay, and you're killing the buzz with serious stuff. ―Mandruss ☎ IMO. 19:53, 20 September 2025 (UTC)

"This essay isn't meant to be taken seriously." That would include any hatnotes. ―Mandruss ☎ IMO. 19:59, 20 September 2025 (UTC)

I had some concerns about killing to buzz, too. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:04, 20 September 2025 (UTC)

Yeah I think we get each other. Alice's Restaurant. ...he took out the toilet paper so I couldn't bend the bars, roll the toilet paper out the window, slide down the roll, and have an ess-cape. And father-rapers. Still killing me after 55 years and about a hundred listens. Arlo will be missed by many. ―Mandruss ☎ IMO. 20:22, 20 September 2025 (UTC)

You could set up a whole table of base pay rates, using Wikipedia:Service awards. "Most Plusquamperfect Looshpah Laureate" has a ring to it, doesn't it? WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:34, 23 September 2025 (UTC)

I'll think on it. Right now it's pure, concise (one-minute read), polished to a high sheen, and damn near perfect (see latest). I've about run out of even the tiny improvements. I'm reluctant to mess with it at this point, but that could change. ―Mandruss ☎ IMO. 10:55, 23 September 2025 (UTC)

@Mandruss, I've been thinking about Alice's Restaurant and a hypothetical List of restaurants in songs. Imagine that it's a bare list of names (red, blue, and unlinked together), with nothing cited. This is below-standard work, of course, but: Should we encourage tagging editors to focus on content that realistically might be wrong/unverifiable? Should we say that the best practice in such cases is to go to the linked article, find a source (if any) there, check it out, and copy it over? Or should we treat them all the same, as if something that can be verified by clicking through to the Wikipedia article is equally bad as something that will require a determined search?

(I've also got the Mercedes Benz (song) on the brain today.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:12, 11 October 2025 (UTC)

Well, if it's not supported by a reliable source, it would stay out. Similar to what we're doing at Paraprosdokian. Beyond that, you're above my unpay grade. ―Mandruss ☎ IMO. 19:20, 11 October 2025 (UTC)

If it's not cited and someone wants to CHALLENGE it, then it stays tagged or removed.

I think my question is more like: Should we ask mass tagger–blankers to focus on the stuff that's potentially problematic, instead of the stuff that is merely in technical violation?

Or even: For a simple list like this, is the best practice to copy a source from the linked article instead of tagging/blanking the material? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:39, 11 October 2025 (UTC)

If it's not cited and someone wants to CHALLENGE it, then it stays tagged or removed. - Not sure I follow (there's my unpay grade, again). It goes without saying that unchallenged content will stay in. What made you think I was the best choice for a sounding board on this? ―Mandruss ☎ IMO. 19:45, 11 October 2025 (UTC)

I thought of you because I was thinking of "Alice's Restaurant". WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:21, 11 October 2025 (UTC)

Oh of course. The connection between Alice's Restaurant and proper handling of a list article. LOL. Yes sir Officer Obie, I cannot tell a lie. I put that envelope under that garbage. ―Mandruss ☎ IMO. 20:25, 11 October 2025 (UTC)

Template:Infobox source reliability

Hi, WhatamIdoing. Just so we don't accidentally duplicate effort, I wanted to let you know I am building Template:Infobox source reliability, per a suggestion of yours at WT:RSP. More fields coming, so I labeled it 'under construction', and the /doc is incomplete. Doesn't mean you can't try it out, just be aware that something might break until it stabilizes. I'm not very knowledgeable about Infobox construction, so I'm learning as I go, but the UX and optics may not be as appealing as one might like. Feel free to add feedback to its Talk page, and after I take down the construction banner, to edit it as you wish. The only page that uses it so far, is Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources/all/California Globe, also under construction. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 05:18, 23 September 2025 (UTC)

Thanks. I'd been thinking about trying out a direct use of Template:Infobox, with custom labels. I'll look at yours later (today, I hope). WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:53, 23 September 2025 (UTC)

It will certainly need more work, but I've removed the 'under construction' tag for now. You can see it in use at four converted landing pages; they are the ones tagged with the ⓘ icon at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources/Index (two B's, and two C's). If you want to play with changes to the template, please use its sandbox. Your feedback would be welcome, either at Template talk, or at WT:RSP, or here.

My next step is probably to create a preload file for an Edit template link, to help streamline conversion of the landing pages from a single table row to whatever the new format will look like through semi-automation. I think your Infobox idea will play a big part in that, so it would be wise to get the Infobox, as well as whatever suggested landing page layout we want somewhat stable, so that when we start converting using an Edit preload, we won't have to go back and change them all again when the format changes. Which isn't to say some format is inviolate, either; but it would be good to have a reasonably stable layout we are happy with as jumping-off point before starting conversion of lots of pages. I recently became aware of Module:Params, which looks somewhere between daunting and scary, but it may be of assistance in creating a more powerful preload page than I am used to, which might allow parameterizing parts of the preload so we could substitute in certain tokens, such as, say, domain names into parts of the preload text. If it can do that, it would speed conversion even more, so it's worth looking into. Mathglot (talk) 09:12, 24 September 2025 (UTC)

As you saw, I put together an example at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources/all/Deutsche Welle. The first paragraph is a simplified version of the article's lead. The simple summary of the discussion is word-for-word from RSP (even though, in that instance, I don't really like it).

Now I'm off to look at your infobox, so I can see what we did differently. (I didn't want your ideas to influence mine.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:10, 26 September 2025 (UTC)

Just passing by. Not sure if it is helpful, however the {{Preload}} template uses Module:Params to append preload arguments to the edit URL. So, to treat all positive numeric parameters as preload arguments this should do: {{#invoke:params|sequential|backpurging|0|0|filling_the_gaps|setting|ih|&preloadparams%5b%5d{{=}}|magic_for_each_value|urlencode|QUERY}}. For any other question about the module I should be able to help. --Grufo (talk) 21:18, 28 September 2025 (UTC)

MAHA mayhem

Sorry to trouble you, I'm just a wee editor and I saw a couple of your recent posts. Would you mind having a look over here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tylenol_(brand)&action=history? Editors big and small seem to be taking a chainsaw to the article in disputes over the recent acetaminophen news, and my call for consensus on talk was promptly ignored by one individual, and I think another may be waving a MAHA study at me. Having recently received a warning for edit warring in a vandalism incident, and with fish much bigger than me involved, I will likely withdraw now. Thanks Patternbuffered (talk) 00:08, 25 September 2025 (UTC)

It looks like the page has been restricted to experienced editors, and that there's an agreement that Trump's sloppy use of the brand name, when he means the drug regardless of what name it's sold under, should be addressed on other pages. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:32, 28 September 2025 (UTC)

Thanks

Hey there, Just wanted to send you a thank you note regarding your comments. In particular "I strongly encourage whoever wrote the "religious and philosophical" principle to read our article on Non-science and then correct the self-contradiction in that principle. It's ironic that this is an echo of the novel legal definition of philosophical belief in the UK Equality Act 2010, which is the very thing that set this train in motion and the reason why any sincerely held belief in the UK is now fair game, no matter whether it stands in conflict with other human rights on discrimination, and what paved the way for what was the locus of the case, versus the rest of the worlds legal frameworks that intentionally leave it undefined to be able to balance it against other human rights principles to be able to restrict philosophical beliefs that are out of proportion with human rights. Here's to hoping that PD 11 doesn't pass as it is like you pointed out.

While we didn't always agree on things, I always appreciated your thoughtful approach. Wishing you all the best. Life is better with cookies, Here are a few to share. Raladic (talk) 03:23, 7 October 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for the cookies.

I think that PD11 could be re-written to say something sensible (e.g., perhaps it might refer to "healthcare topics" instead of "scientific topics"), but I'm unhappy with the current version, especially because it says that articles shouldn't include non-scientific content in the second sentence and then says that non-scientific content can be included in the very next sentence. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:36, 7 October 2025 (UTC)

Queer Theories vs Transhumanism/Transfeminsm

I saw you mention "the idea that gender identity should have primacy over biological sex and gender expression, came out of Queer Studies". I agree that these ideas are based on philosophy, not science. But the philosophies at play are Transhumanism and Transfeminism, though you might consider that horribly pedantic.

Queer theory in the 90's said something different: Gender is a performance, when you go to sleep at night, you don't have a gender. It's something you do, not something you are. Queer people, (meaning Gay), "queer gender" by not playing along by gender roles, thus, making it easier for everyone else to break those rules too. This is a simplistic explanation, they get really deep into the postmodern ideas that "words change reality" and therefore "performance changes reality". But this was all about social rules and roles and didn't have anything about body modification or legally changing ones sex on government documents, you find that elsewhere.

That idea that gender should replace sex comes from Martine Rothblatt to justify Self ID Law. Rothblatt published "The Apartheid of Sex: A Manifesto on the Freedom of Gender" in the 1990s. The 2nd edition is "From Transgender to Transhuman: A Manifesto On the Freedom Of Form". The idea in the book is that dividing humans by sex is oppression, and for humanity to be free of oppression, people must be allowed to "explore" their gender, which is a spectrum. Then, they report this gender to the government, and it legally becomes their sex. In this framing, only "bona fide" medical purposes would be an exception. People usually classify this as Transhumanism, because the idea in the book is to use being transgender as a way to solidify body modification as a human right in law... to usher in the future of human evolution. The book is extremely influential and people use the ideas in this book constantly in arguments, without referencing it directly.

But the name everyone knows is Julia Serano. You'll find in academia in the 2000's, there was a real push to read minority view points in academia, and everyone starting readying Whipping Girl and Excluded. She is considered a transfeminist. I think people try to argue Serano's "subconscious sex" as a scientific fact or mainstream position, they just don't use her terminology when talking about it. But she rejects the "mind/body" separation of Rothblatt (In her book, Excluded), or the idea that Gender is Performance from Queer Theory [1]. She's considered a Transfeminist, you can read about her ideas here: (Whipping_Girl#Intrinsic_inclinations_model)

Sorry to write such a long comment. The ideas are philosophical, and honestly these ideas are the fringe ones, and shouldn't be treated as mainstream positions. I've accepted that it will just take time for people to step back and examine them critically, but it's frustrating we can't just report, neutrally, on the topic on Wikipedia. Denaar (talk) 12:44, 9 October 2025 (UTC)

I don't mind long comments.

I've read that the philosophical idea that gender should have primacy over sex came out of queer studies in the 1970s, which appears to be two decades before transfeminism existed. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:54, 9 October 2025 (UTC)

The idea of gender as performance actually dates back to feminist writing from the late-1940s. FYI. Simonm223 (talk) 17:59, 9 October 2025 (UTC)

Freud was talking about the sociological meaning of 'sex' in 1905, and that's what we would call gender now. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:10, 9 October 2025 (UTC)

Feedback request

Hi, I see you removed BilledMammal from Wikipedia:Feedback request service, do you think it might be worth doing the same for SMcCandlish until they're back so their talk page doesn't get clogged up? Kowal2701 (talk) 23:08, 10 October 2025 (UTC)

@Kowal2701, that's probably a good idea. You can do it yourself. Just leave a nice note for him so he'll know what happened and can revert it when he's back. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:14, 10 October 2025 (UTC)

Images and the Graphics Lab

Hi. You might recall this response of mine to a comment you made at WT:RSP about needing a screenshot about the PEIS limit, and I suggested an annotated image or illustration of some sort and mentioned the WP:Graphics Lab. Just wanted to mention that I recently needed a "broken table" icon to help illustrate the message now visible at the top of Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources/1 and the other numbered subtables, and I think they did a great job, don't you? It's an iterative process, so you get to give feedback and see updated images, until you get something you like. See archive. I bet they could come up with something great for you, if you describe what you have in mind. Some of the volunteers there also have a creative streak, and if you don't know exactly what you are looking for, just describe the context of where it will be used, and let them try to imagine something. Some of them just like to execute precise requests, so it depends who's around when you ask. Mathglot (talk) 01:06, 13 October 2025 (UTC)

I gave a description to Chat GPT, asking for a textual description of a diagram suitable to pass to GL, and here's what it came up with:

Text describing an image which could be passed to Graphics Lab as a request

Diagram concept: “Wikipedia page expansion process and the PEIS limit”

Title: Post-expand include size (PEIS) — how template expansion fills the post-expand buffer

Overall layout: horizontal flow left → center → right.

Left panel — “Wikitext source”

Box heading (no styling inside heading): Wikitext (page source)

Inside the box, show short example lines of wikitext (use clear, normal typeface, no special characters):

{{Infobox}}
{{Navbox|name=…}}
{{Citation|…}}
{{LongTemplate|param1=…}}
{{#invoke:Module|function}}

Small caption beneath the box: “Templates, transclusions and parser calls in the page source.”

Center panel — “Template expansion machine”

A stylized funnel or machine that takes short template calls on the left and outputs much larger expanded text to the right.

Above the machine: a meter (gauge) labeled “Expanded size”. The gauge should show needle moving right as expansion increases; optionally include units (illustrative, e.g. bytes) or a caption “grows as templates expand”.

On the body of the machine put the label “Template expansion”.

Optional small arrows showing growth (small widgets → big blocks).

Right panel — “Post-expand buffer / PEIS”

A vertical rectangular “buffer” (tank) labeled “Post-expand include buffer (PEIS)”.

Show a horizontal capacity line with text beside it, e.g. “Capacity (illustrative only): 1 MB” — or leave the numeric amount blank and say “illustrative capacity — site default varies” if you prefer not to give a hard number.

Fill the bottom portion of the tank with a coloured block (e.g., blue) showing “Expanded content used.”

A red horizontal line at the top of the fill labelled “PEIS limit — further expansion blocked” (or “Limit reached — additional templates excluded”).

Above the red line, show a few small grey boxes labelled “Excluded templates / skipped expansion” (these visually sit above the red line to indicate they were not included).

Small caption under the tank: “When the post-expand buffer is full, additional templates/transclusions are not included in the final expansion.”

Optional small continuation (bottom-right) — “Parser output / HTML rendering”

A small icon of a web page or HTML page labeled “Parser output (HTML render)” with an arrow from the buffer to the page icon.

Add a small note: “Rendering proceeds with expanded content available; templates excluded by PEIS are omitted from expanded wikitext.”

Legend / callouts

Include 3–4 callout boxes that explain:

What PEIS means (short): “PEIS = maximum size of the expanded wikitext after all templates/transclusions are processed.”

Why it matters: “If page expansion exceeds the PEIS, some templates are not expanded — long templates (navboxes, transclusions) commonly contribute.”

Practical outcome: “Large pages may silently omit expansions; editors may hit parser errors or see missing elements.”

Design notes

Clean vector (SVG preferred), high-contrast labels, readable sans font (no script or decorative fonts).

Use neutral colour palette (blue for filled portion, red for limit line, grey for excluded items).

Include accessible alt text and a short caption for Wikimedia Commons.

License: CC BY-SA 4.0 (or CC BY-SA 3.0 if you prefer).

What do you think? It sounds a bit busy to me, so I would probably simplify it, but this is a starting point. Mathglot (talk) 01:24, 13 October 2025 (UTC)

Do you need one image with three parts, or three images that you can display side by side? WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:27, 13 October 2025 (UTC)

This was an attempt to fill your need for some kind of image illustrating PEIS, so it's whatever you want. This might not suit your needs at all, and maybe you want something completely different in conception; I was just trying to brainstorm some ideas of how to render the PEIS concept. I like the left-to-right progression, the idea of a meter with a needle, some kind of container filling up, an then getting exceeded and what happens then (some templates not getting expanded). It's a somewhat complicated diagram description(but not anywhere nearly as complex as some others), but it's a somewhat complex concept, so I think a three-part, L-R design is appropriate. But how would you design an illustration for it? Mathglot (talk) 03:08, 13 October 2025 (UTC)

I think it's important to have the three bits, and I like your idea of a left-to-right progression. I like the idea of a Fuel gauge. I think what I'm saying is that if it'd be simpler, I don't care whether it's one big 800px-wide image or three images set side by side with {{multiple images}}. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:14, 13 October 2025 (UTC)

Oh, I see. No, I think we should stick with the idea of one diagram, which the GL folks can certainly do, even if CGPT cannot. While we've been talking, I've been trying to get it to build an image, and I think it has been bumping up against its own internal limits, as it has been doing some strange things in the first three attempts; I'm making one last try. But I think if you just describe in words what you are imagining, the GL can build something. And then you can iterate, getting the design, sizes, style, and captions just right. It's kind of a joint process, and a fun one. It's also a fun challenge to describe, purely in text, the image of something you have in your head, and get that into someone else's head. Reminds me a bit of the fun behind the children's game Charades. You should totally try it. Or if you'd rather I initiate it, I'm happy to. Mathglot (talk) 03:48, 13 October 2025 (UTC)

I'd rather that you initiated it. (They might want a couple of links to already-broken versions.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:37, 13 October 2025 (UTC)

Government databases

Responding here because I don't want to get in to bludgeon territory on that discussion thread, but:

"Reputable and authoritative government sources, such as the US Census..."

Our worst cases in this field all involve "reputable and authoritative" government-published databases, including those of the US government (the Iranian census, GNIS, GNS). We had to introduce an exception explicitly for US Census Bureau-designated places because otherwise the outcomes we were getting otherwise were ridiculous.

So yeah, whilst it's an attractive-sounding idea to say "Just use government documents", once you look at what these documents actually say you start to realise that it really isn't that simple. FOARP (talk) 09:08, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

It sounds like some of these aren't actually "reputable".

Think about this concept also from the POV of organizations. If the national government produces a report on the local schools or the local hospitals, the resulting source is (usually—devil's in the details) sufficiently at arm's length to be considered Wikipedia:Independent sources. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:22, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

Emotionally focused therapy

Is this even fixable? AfD or hacksaw? I dunno what it is but its not an encyclopedia article. Thanks, Polygnotus (talk) 21:01, 18 October 2025 (UTC)

And 50 editors since 2007. ―Mandruss ☎ IMO. 21:19, 18 October 2025 (UTC)

It needs a lot of work, but, Polygnotus, you're fighting a newbie. Back off for a couple of days, and come back to it later, after their attention may have waned. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:33, 18 October 2025 (UTC)

It is too far outside my wheelhouse to fight. Kinda hoping to dump this on someone who knows about such things. In its current form its very chaotic and hard to follow. Thanks, Polygnotus (talk) 21:35, 18 October 2025 (UTC)

I also asked Lova Falk if they're willing to take a look. We have a FA for every ammo type used in recorded history but articles on forms of therapy are lagging behind. Polygnotus (talk) 21:33, 18 October 2025 (UTC)

A note at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Psychology would be appropriate, but it's not a very big group, so there might not be any response.

Markworthen (whose User:Markworthen/Feeling misunderstood and attacked is worth a read) is another useful editor for sorting out psychology articles, but he's been off wiki for a few weeks. Iss246, do you happen to know anything about Emotionally focused therapy? It looks kind of far from your usual area. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:38, 18 October 2025 (UTC)

I left a cry for help at WT:PSYCHOLOGY; you never know. The draft appears to be better than the article. Polygnotus (talk) 21:42, 18 October 2025 (UTC)

I am not familiar with emotional focused therapy (EFT) or research on its efficacy. The two psychotherapies I am most familiar with are cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) and interpersonal therapy (IPT), specifically with regard to their efficacy in helping people suffering from high levels of depressive symptoms. The research reports on clinical trials involving those two therapies indicate that they are very effective. I think there is more evidence favoring CBT and IPT in the realm of depression than there is for any other type of psychotherapy. CBT has sometimes been used in combination with pharmacotherapy to help people suffering with treatment-resistant depression. CBT is also very effective in helping people with excessive anxiety but I am not familiar with IPT and anxiety problems. I wish I could help you more EFT. Iss246 (talk) 02:34, 19 October 2025 (UTC)

Administrator notice

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. You can find it at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Repetitive Ad Hominem Attacks. The purpose is not to punish but to ensure we are all on the same page. Note that this isn't necessarily about you, but some of the other users.

@WhatamIdoing Wikieditor662 (talk) 02:08, 21 October 2025 (UTC)

You don't need to ping people on their own User_talk: pages; it doesn't do anything. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:36, 21 October 2025 (UTC)

It says at the ANI that this is necessary and that pinging alone isn't enough. Wikieditor662 (talk) 12:01, 21 October 2025 (UTC)

It says at the top of Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents that the message is necessary. Pinging someone on their own User_talk: is pointless. What the ANI note means is that it's not sufficient to ping someone on ANI itself. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:03, 21 October 2025 (UTC)

Right, my bad. Consarn already told me that you're already pinged when messages on your talk page. So yeah, Mea Culpa with that one. Wikieditor662 (talk) 15:40, 22 October 2025 (UTC)

Next time, you'll be able to save yourself a little effort. :-) WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:17, 22 October 2025 (UTC)

Thanks again for your help. Let me know if you need anything else! Wikieditor662 (talk) 18:22, 22 October 2025 (UTC)

Question

Hello, sorry to bother you- I wanted to ask if you would like to review my FAC of Hunter Schafer? I promise to do any review/expansion of an article or two, as you like, if you want? HSLover/DWF (talk) 17:16, 21 October 2025 (UTC)

No, I can't promise to do that. Good luck finding reviewers. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:01, 21 October 2025 (UTC)

RfC by multiple people?

Regarding this. You wrote it, and I've never heard of an RfC by multiple people. No offense intended. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 02:53, 23 October 2025 (UTC)

I wrote the first draft, but others had a significant number of changes. For example, the first sentence was written by someone else.

Also, see Wikipedia:Requests for comment#cite note-2: Names are not required (have never been required; used to be prohibited) on the RFC question. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:05, 23 October 2025 (UTC)

That's news to me. Thanks. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 03:10, 23 October 2025 (UTC)

You're welcome. (This place is too big for anyone to know all the details.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:25, 23 October 2025 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Emily Neves § B-class/GA-class efforts

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Emily Neves § B-class/GA-class efforts. sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:29, 23 October 2025 (UTC)

I'm not interested in pop culture/entertainers. Good luck with your project. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:18, 23 October 2025 (UTC)

Thanks. sjones23 (talk - contributions) 04:20, 23 October 2025 (UTC)

ACK

WAID, this happened to me once before, and I have a vague memory that you gave me the cluestick. On my iPad, I hit the wrong button somewhere, and I suddenly have a huge offensive bunch of colored gobble-dee-gook in edit mode. I'm seeing templates in purple, wikilinks in blue, varying font sizes ... giving me a headache to run screaming from the building. I think I did this once before and you told me I had either clicked on Beta something, or somehow switched which editor I was using. I've always used the old plain vanilla editor ... how can I get back? This is awful on old eyes, and now I'm making even more mistakes than usual, and in trying to fix it, I may have messed up some other setting in my Preferences, because I keep going back to old versions or something to do with Recover mode. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 08:43, 23 October 2025 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia, it's possible that you have something in your prefs screwed up, but the more likely scenario is that you bumped the "syntax highlighting" button in the toolbar. To fix:

1. Open any page/article.
2. Look in the toolbar for the "highlighter pen", which is in between the "Reference" book icon and the word "Advanced".
3. Click that button to make the angry fruit salad go away.
4. Optionally, if that solved your problem, go to Wikipedia:Village pump (technical) and ask someone to write you a user script to hide that button, so you'll never be able to click on it again.

WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:55, 23 October 2025 (UTC)

Yep, that was it ... thank you ever so much. Nasty fruit! Now to figure out what other setting I may have messed with ... thx again! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:54, 23 October 2025 (UTC)

You're welcome. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:57, 23 October 2025 (UTC)

All set; thx again! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:54, 23 October 2025 (UTC)

Make a mental note that if it ever gets turned back on (e.g., if resetting all your prefs does that – I don't know if it does, but it might), then you need to remove that line from your .css file, so you can see the button to turn it back off, and then restore the line so you can't accidentally click it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:03, 23 October 2025 (UTC)

FYI

Cf. Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Bilseric#26 October 2025. (I didn't notice I was editing in the mode where @ mentions didn't work.) --Joy (talk) 09:29, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

not she

I happened to notice you referred to me as she, but it's actually he. Sadly my nickname predates my understanding of its implications :) --Joy (talk) 20:46, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. Joy strikes me as a good nickname. BTW, I've occasionally edited people's comments to correct pronouns for myself, and nobody's ever complained. I don't bother when I've been addressed as "Respected sir" or the like, but a single character doesn't seem to irritate anyone. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:34, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

I've tended to avoid editing other people's comments, and just let them know for the future. I thought it was a fine nickname, too, but it has occasionally confused people over the years :) --Joy (talk) 08:58, 27 October 2025 (UTC)

AeroRoutes at WP:RSN

I have started a new discussion on whether Aeroroutes is a reliable source because i am feeling that there are things missed out that werent mentioned in the first one, if you wanna join the discussion to mention on if its a reliable source feel free to do so, the discussion is at WP:RSN#WP:AEROROUTES Metrosfan (talk) 11:26, 27 October 2025 (UTC)

Tesla

What now? Joy had bullied everyone to go away from the discussion. He accused me of being a sock of an user who had viewpoint 180 from mine (slandered me to other admins to agree with him) and he expected noone to implement the consensus. Now when you have implemented it, he started bullying you to back off , like it's your consensus, not everyone's from the discussion.

He's NOTHERE, POV pushing and forum shopping. You mentioned that further posting about Croatia should be removed, and here we go , he's allowed to do it? He's the one starting discussions over and over again until he gets what he wants. The very same thing he's accusing others.

How about admitting the he's the one here pushing Croatia to article against everyone. The same Trimpops and Bilserich did and got banned. He's just not backing off. Keeps deleting comments of IP who he can push around, etc. That's why I asked uninvolved editor to close and now it's not enough for him. He keeps bullying you to loose interest and back off.

78.2.209.226 (talk) 17:31, 29 October 2025 (UTC)

I think that the answer to "What now?" is that you do nothing.

I have never said that Croatia should be removed from the whole article. What I have said is that if editors can't come to an agreement that "Smiljan, Austrian Empire" is functional in the infobox, then they should consider (NB: not are required to, just think about) removing "Smiljan, Austrian Empire" from the infobox only.

I make this recommendation because this is Wikipedia's standard way to approach infobox contents. If the particular detail seems nuanced or too complex, then you leave it out of the infobox and address it, using sentences and paragraphs and sometimes even whole ==Sections==, in the body of the article.

What I do next is look up Wikipedia:Contentious topics/Balkans or Eastern Europe and think about whether the benefit of stopping the endless bickering would be worth the effort of getting Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Procedures#Extended confirmed restriction added for that one article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:56, 29 October 2025 (UTC)

No I wasn't speaking about article body here. Just the infobox. I agree with what you said just now. OK, I'll back off. But too late for my comment on the page where I suggested to seek closure review. That would be correct thing to do, not to bully you to loose interest. 95.168.118.32 (talk) 18:01, 29 October 2025 (UTC)

BDW , you don't know what happened a year ago with Trimpops. That's why Joy is acting like this. I was Ip 95 in that discussion. 95.168.118.32 (talk) 18:04, 29 October 2025 (UTC)

I assure you that I am capable of reading a talk page. I completely disagree with your belief that Joy is bullying me and your belief that Joy wants me to lose interest in the discussion. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:12, 29 October 2025 (UTC)

Ok, but at least we agree that he should seek closure review if he disagrees with the consensus and not do what he is doing now. That's the correct way to proceed. Let another uninvolved editor review it, if he thinks you haven't assessed the consensus correctly. I'm not being unreasonable here, am I? 78.2.209.226 (talk) 18:19, 29 October 2025 (UTC)

That's what I did with Trimpop's discussion. I've asked for a review. 78.2.209.226 (talk) 18:21, 29 October 2025 (UTC)

But, let me ask you. Why banning people to discuss with Extended confirmed restriction. First of all, it's not constant endless bickering. There's were a few discussion in the last 10 years. It's not endless. Wikipedia is made to discuss and not to have one permanent consensus. Sometimes new sources appear. Sometimes people have better arguments. Let people discuss if they want. Wikipedia is not Joys personal project. If he is present for 20 years and gets annoyed if he sees similar discussion from 10 years ago , so what? Nobody is forcing him to participate. New people appear, others go, views change and sometimes past consensus was made because one side had bad editor who didn't know Wiki rules and didn't have good arguments so the other's side won. It's not a problem if the discussion is civil. I'm present on this page for years as IP. I always have discussed arugments and sources and they Joy and others have always attacking and banning people. This is no way to go. Wikipedia is made for everyone and discussions should be free. And, again, I repeat, it's not consatant. I think only 5 considerable in the last decade. That's not constant. 78.2.209.226 (talk) 18:51, 29 October 2025 (UTC)

Why? Because Serbian/Croatian nationalist disputes are covered by the Wikipedia:Contentious topics list, and importing real-world geopolitical disputes to Wikipedia should not "be free". WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:58, 29 October 2025 (UTC)

I'm trying to tell you that was not the case for Tesla article at all. I'm Croatian and I have agreed with Sadko who is Serbian to remove Croatia. Joy is Croatian and he has disagreed with Trimpops to add Croatia. Most of Croatians have disagreed with Trimpops, you can see for yourself. I don't remember any Tesla discussion where we had Croats against Serbs. It was always a mix on one side and mix on other side of discussions, and even then they were a minority of editors in a particular discussion, most were not Croats or Serbs. 78.2.209.226 (talk) 19:03, 29 October 2025 (UTC)

Fighting over how often to mention/not mention a country's name is importing the dispute. It doesn't matter what ethnic or national allegiance the disputants claim. (You already know that some people lie on the internet, right?) WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:06, 29 October 2025 (UTC)

It's not like that. Discussions were always about specific topic or sources. But anyways, he started to ban again. Time for me to take a rest for a while from this article. 212.15.177.40 (talk) 19:28, 29 October 2025 (UTC)

protection?

I see the latest bout of block evasion is affecting your user talk, but you're also engaging with them. Do you wish to continue doing that, or do you want your user talk to be temporarily protected? --Joy (talk) 19:21, 29 October 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for the offer, but I don't think it will be necessary yet. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:26, 29 October 2025 (UTC)

Off-topic AI

Read your post about experienced editors detecting LLMs the AI RfC, realized it got a bit too tangential, decided I would come and bother you here instead.

Even when AI is used... does it always matter?

Take, for instance, this guy, Byron Mann, aka Byronmann. He spent the better part of 15 years coming onto Wikipedia, trying to remove his birthday because he says it's incorrect[2]. (I did a bit of snooping, dusted the cobwebs off a few very old message boards, and am inclined to agree). But he didn't use the Magic Three Letter Acronyms, or know how to use them - so he got reverted. A lot. [3][4][5]. And, 2025 rolls around and he suddenly shows up to WP:BLP/N, throwing in all the right, scary words - BLP, "page protection", and "Diff" [6] - and a bunch of us editors go "Wait, why can't we find a source pre-dating the original addition to the article?" and he finally gets what he wants - incorrect information removed and a couple people watching the page to make sure it stays out pending a good source.

Now, I don't know for certain how he went from knowing nothing to citing PAGs at BLP/N, just like I don't know who instructed him to "Diff:[add the diff link from history where age was re-added]." I do know that the Google-indexable internet doesn't have results for that placeholder text, and I do know that this would probably count as "communication from the user" under G15. But either way, it clearly worked, when nothing else did. If somebody had removed his post for being AI generated, would we have been better off? GreenLipstickLesbian💌🦋 03:45, 30 October 2025 (UTC)

I really think that we need to accept some AI posts on talk pages. The lengthy ones can be irritating, and I don't want The Regulars™ to do that, but if an LLM helps package a message in a way that we can understand it, especially when we haven't been listening enough to follow our own policies, then the underlying facts are more important than the process by which the facts are described. (See also Wikipedia:Product, process, policy.)

You wouldn't think that Wikipedia editors would have such a hard time with that concept, but it seems to strike some people in a very bad way – like you're lying to them, if you don't write every word yourself. It's not good enough to use an LLM to draft something, make sure that it says what you mean, and then post it. In fact, it's not even good enough to write the words 100% yourself, if someone's gotten it into his head (rightly or wrongly) that you are a LLM user. It's impossible to disprove.

I was pinged to a discussion at AN that seems to be closing as "You didn't say Mother, May I? before posting that LLM-based explanation, so we win on a technicality". I'd rather that the dispute was solved by someone saying "Look, you don't have to like it, and you're free to think everyone else is wrong and stupid, but you lost fair and square, and you need to put down the WP:STICK and let that article go to wrack and ruin, instead of trying a third fourth way to get the outcome you've passionately argued for for so long". WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:17, 30 October 2025 (UTC)

I wonder if it's a respect thing. Like, from the average Wikipedian's perspective, people using chatbots aren't even deigning to speak with them, so why should they both to listen? Or AGF? Or do anything other than try to prove that the person who won't even given them the time of day is anything but a Bad Person? Even in that conversation, you see people addressing their comments the chatbot rather than the human. And I'm sure a certain percentage of people are just using them as a microphone to more noticeably stick their fingers in their ears and shout about how they were right. But I'd guess that most people using them are just insecure in their own writing ability or genuinely don't know how to write in their own words. Lots of people struggle with that. And while they might not always understand what you write back, the actual human operating the account is reading what you say. At least, I hope. GreenLipstickLesbian💌🦋 18:41, 30 October 2025 (UTC)

The most frustrating example of this for me was about Böksta Runestone earlier this year. It's a historical artifact in Sweden. The newcomer didn't speak English natively, but he could understand it well enough to realize that we had a factual error in an image caption. The conversation went something like this:

• Newcomer with LLM assistance: There's an error here, and here's why it's wrong.
• Two Wikipedia editors: You horrible chatbot-using scum!
• Newcomer without LLM assistance: I didn't know LLMs were banned. Okay, so apologies if my English is off, but there's an error here, and it should be fixed.
• Two Wikipedia editors: Stop using a chatbot! You are obviously using a chatbot!
• Newcomer without LLM assistance: About that factual error in the article: If you compare it to what's in the Swedish Wikipedia article, then we see that this is not correct.
• Two Wikipedia editors: Stop using a chatbot! We don't have to listen to anything you say because you used a chatbot!
• Newcomer without LLM assistance: I have already stopped using a chatbot. I only used ChatGPT for the first comment, and as soon as you told me that it's not okay, I stopped and have written everything by myself as best as I can. Can we please fix the error in the article now?
• Two Wikipedia editors: La la la we don't have to listen to you brainless chatbot users, and anyone who can't see that you're just a chatbot user is stupid!

One of them finally fixed the error in the article, but still kept yelling at him for using a chatbot even after he stopped. This is bad behavior, even if you hold the worst possible view of chatbot use. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:56, 30 October 2025 (UTC)

After reading that exchange, I was unable to compose a response that didn't violate WP:GRAVEDANCING. Yeah, those types of exchanges are exactly what I'm worried about - again, I don't think people should use chatbots, as a rule, but spotting an error and using an machine translator to translate your message and posting it to the article talk is about the best use case possible. And seeing the way they were treated... :( GreenLipstickLesbian💌🦋 03:54, 15 November 2025 (UTC)

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US politics

Is anyone insane enough to do US politics 'round here? Do you make that mistake? Iran Experts Initiative is pretty bad. I did some cleanup work but the article needs someone who actually knows how to deal with such things. Not sure if I should describe it as a wasps nest or a cesspool. A wasp-infested cesspool? Polygnotus (talk) 18:48, 4 November 2025 (UTC)

I don't know anything about the subject. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:15, 4 November 2025 (UTC)

Do you know who I could ask? Its more right-wing US than Iran/Saudi. Polygnotus (talk) 20:17, 4 November 2025 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Conservatism? Wikipedia:WikiProject Politics? Wikipedia:WikiProject Politics/American politics? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:19, 4 November 2025 (UTC)

Was kinda hoping you'd know someone. I tried on NPOVN but no dice. The pages of WikiProjects usually don't help answer the only important thing about a Wikiproject : "who is the person I should ask about this topic". According to my calculations roughly half of the accounts listed as members of Wikiprojects are inactive or blocked, and there are over 200 wikiprojects in Category:Active WikiProjects that haven't been edited in over a year: User:Polygnotus/inactivewikiprojects. The only way to deal with it is FilterInactiveOrBlocked., then SortByEditcount. Polygnotus (talk) 22:28, 4 November 2025 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject X had a bot to automatically add/remove members from lists, based on activity. Most groups (and all defunct/inactive/former groups) didn't adopt it. I'd be happy if someone ran through old lists and removed the names of people who haven't edited for a couple of years. It would make it easier to find and tag the defunct groups.

I sometimes wish for a "sort by edit count" that lists only people who have edited during the last year or so. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:50, 5 November 2025 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll try to find it. I was thinking about making a bot that creates a weighted sort which takes into account how much they edit and how recent their last edit was. Sadly the clueful people are busy, many people don't actually list themselves as a participant in a WikiProject despite having the skills required and Quarry 96802 always has a bunch of (evil) gnomes near the top. I wish I could outsource all my problems. Well, I can, but if I did I would expect terrible results. Polygnotus (talk) 02:56, 5 November 2025 (UTC)

Feedback on essay/formulation of policy proposal

Hi, we've interacted a few times in the past regarding policy proposals and discussions, and I've passively appreciated your takes on various other policy issues. I've privately started putting together an essay/proposal that I wanted early feedback on from a vet.

1. Is it appropriate to directly ask for reviewer comments like this? I'm working through drafts, so I wasn't sure what's the best way to include others in the iteration process.

2. What's the best way to share the current draft? Is it through a subpage that I create, or some other place?

Much thanks, spintheer (talk) 05:46, 5 November 2025 (UTC)

How private do you want that private draft to be? If it's on a subpage, then anyone on the internet will be able to see it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:50, 5 November 2025 (UTC)

Ah ok, I'll email it. spintheer (talk) 06:05, 5 November 2025 (UTC)

Enough material to write an article

Hello WAID,

On the topic of notability boundaries, and guideline writing for the boundaries, and interviews, I would be interested in your take on Greg Hayes (audio_engineer), currently at DRV, WP:Deletion review/Log/2025 November 4. The article included a source ([7]), an interview with a preamble.

Do you agree with me, me thinking that the preamble can be taken as independent secondary source coverage?

Is there enough material to write an article?

- SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:53, 6 November 2025 (UTC)

Yes, phrases like "one standout in this field", though we wouldn't usually want to use them in an encyclopedia article because of the puffy tone, are comparisons and therefore an example of secondary content.

Whether it's independent is a much less clear to me. This is a business interviewing one of their customers, and they probably wouldn't have published it if the subject wasn't promoting their products in the interview. If I saw this in a trade magazine, I'd probably judge the magazine and the subject to be independent of each other. But I'm inclined to say the opposite here: he's probably not getting paid for this interview, but the business' decision to publish the interview is probably entirely self-interested. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:32, 6 November 2025 (UTC)

Thanks.

I was going to go easy on “independent” considerations after our previous conversations.

You don’t seem to like this method, but I find the source to have clues of flags of non-independence, mainly the close perspective of the author to the subject, it feeling like they are sitting together. “One standout in this field” is also puff, unverifiable, unquantifiable, positive opinion. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:12, 7 November 2025 (UTC)

Well, there's nothing wrong with having an unquantifiable positive opinion. But I think it'd be tricky to use this source. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:05, 8 November 2025 (UTC)

Thank you

A quick thank-you for your reply to that young TA. I struggle with finding the right words for talking to young newbies without scaring them off, so it was helpful to see how you responded. ClaudineChionh (she/her · talk · email · global) 23:08, 7 November 2025 (UTC)

I hope it works. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:06, 8 November 2025 (UTC)

Maybe

I was thinking how to approach the WPMED invitations/editathon/whatever problem in a way that spares the server kitties. meta:Connection Team/Invitation list isn't suitable for large nummbers. Something like User:Polygnotus/PAWS/cat2users? Am I missing important stuff? Polygnotus (talk) 21:42, 10 November 2025 (UTC)

Why do you want to do that? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:47, 10 November 2025 (UTC)

[8] and various other places. Polygnotus (talk) 21:48, 10 November 2025 (UTC)

How many editors are you hoping to invite (hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands...)? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:57, 10 November 2025 (UTC)

The goal is to create a method of making lists of usernames based on cats that is somewhat userfriendly and can be used by people who host editathons (or do the WPMED invites like you). So the input should be one or more cats, the output should be a list of usernames of users who've edited articles in those cats.

The WMF created that Invitation list thing I linked to, I looked at the code and thought about how to make something better. This is the v0.01. Polygnotus (talk) 22:00, 10 November 2025 (UTC)

I believe that the WMF put some time and effort into determining how big a MassMessage-type list can get, without someone pitching a fit. (The record is six [yes, the single-digit number], BTW, but he got smacked pretty hard by his community for that, and I don't think it will happen again at that level.) A long invitation list could get the tool prohibited for everyone. Maybe it would be better to issue a handful of invitations at a time?

And if you want general broadcast methods, try things like the watchlist notices. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:27, 10 November 2025 (UTC)

I am confused you haven't warned them about people starting a riot when someone sends a message that isn't explicitly opted in to on meta:Talk:Connection Team/Invitation list.

A long invitation list could get the tool prohibited for everyone. Maybe it would be better to issue a handful of invitations at a time? True, but according to my first love, tools should do one thing at most. Polygnotus (talk) 22:32, 11 November 2025 (UTC)

So the Unix philosophy is that everyone should run VMS instead of Unix. ;-) WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:09, 11 November 2025 (UTC)

One-time messages have a procedural problem. We have an idea that you should opt-in, so we say (e.g.,) for an ongoing newsletter that you could receive one copy with an opportunity to opt in. Fine, but what if the message is only a one-time thing? Shall we tell editors that they can opt out of a list that isn't going to be used in the future?

One workaround for this is to include a note in the message that says it's a one-time message. Another is remind the complainers that the TOS says "You agree that we may provide you with notices". WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:16, 11 November 2025 (UTC)

TempleOS? It sounds like we'd need to add some checkboxes in Preferences, and one-time request to set their permissions for various types of messages when they reach, lets say, 100 edits (it wouldn't make sense to do it at user registration) with perhaps a reminder at some point if they haven't.

But since this requires the WMF it will probably never happen (unless you know a magic trick I am unaware of?). Should I add this to the community wishlist? Polygnotus (talk) 00:09, 12 November 2025 (UTC)

TOS = Terms of service. You should read them someday, if you haven't. By editing at all, you agree that you will receive some messages. You don't need to opt-in again to receiving one-off messages, because you already opted in with your very first edit. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:55, 12 November 2025 (UTC)

I don't think You agree that we may provide you with notices, including those regarding changes to the Terms of Use, by email, regular mail, or postings on the Projects or Project Websites. buried near the end of the WMF ToS is enough to quell the bloodthirst of those who received an unwanted message from someone who is not the WMF. But "Check your settings, you opted in" might. Polygnotus (talk) 19:45, 12 November 2025 (UTC)

We don't actually get that many complaints about it, so long as the overall volume is kept low and it's not happening via e-mail. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:38, 12 November 2025 (UTC)

My brain is one of those "I am sure I've seen this somewhere" ones and I'll probably remember exactly where and when in 2028.

Some weirdos actually enable email notifications when someone edits their talkpage, when they could just be on Wikipedia hitting refresh 24/7/365. Polygnotus (talk) 22:58, 12 November 2025 (UTC)

meta:Talk:Community Wishlist/W452. Blessed is (s)he who expects nothing, for (s)he shall never be disappointed. Polygnotus (talk) 00:25, 12 November 2025 (UTC)

A barnstar for you

		The Original Barnstar
		For your countless detailed explanations of Wikipedia's labyrinth of policies. When I see a policy discussion, I know you will soon provide a well-reasoned and factually supported opinion, even if not everyone agrees with it. Katzrockso (talk) 00:03, 11 November 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for the kind words. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:12, 11 November 2025 (UTC)

Formatting question

Quick question - I've got the RfC drafted and saved in my sandbox ready to come out, but there's three questions regarding markup...

Firstly, what's the template that allows you to format template markup nicely in a talk page? Obviously I could use <nowiki>, but I seem to remember there's a specific template that allows it!

Second, do pings work in collapsed text? Since there's so many editors in the VPP discussion, I thought about putting the pings in a collapsed section so it doesn't clutter it up...

Finally, how much is it frowned upon to have collapsed text in an RfC (ignoring the pings)? Was planning to put the "summary in prose" explanation in a collapsed section since it's context only... Danners430 _{tweaks made} 19:28, 12 November 2025 (UTC)

@Danners430, are you looking for Template:Template link, which creates things like {{citation needed}}? (There are several of these, with different formatting. Some allow you to include parameters or show subst:.

Pings work in collapsed text. It's not unusual to ping a bunch of people and then collapse it later. You can also use <small>...</small> tags. Remember that you can only ping 50 people in a single edit. (If you try more than that, no pings are sent. It prevents both spamming and embarrassing mistakes.)

Don't put any collapsed text in the actual RFC question (the bit after the {{rfc|policy}} template and before the first timestamp). Depending on how the template is constructed internally, it might screw up the formatting of pages like Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Outside of the official question, it's usual talk-page rules. An explanation could be collapsed, linked, or posted as usual. You could put it in a ===Sub-section===. If you want to write an example of a summary of prose in an article, you could make the edit with an edit summary such as "Demo for discussion – will self-revert" (and then promptly self-revert), and then put the link in the discussion, too. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:28, 12 November 2025 (UTC)

That's absolutely perfect - many thanks for that! Danners430 _{tweaks made} 01:34, 13 November 2025 (UTC)

You're welcome. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:51, 13 November 2025 (UTC)

No immediate closure.

Hi @WhatamIdoing. Just wanted to request again per your message here, that you don't request a close immediately after 7 days and 1 minute has passed for the current RfC. It has been just over 5 days at this time, and both options have been individually chosen by multiple editors, meaning there is no established consensus yet. 7 days is definitely not going to be long enough for this RfC. A few editors were expecting it to be very one-sided, however that has not come to pass. 11WB (talk) 03:29, 15 November 2025 (UTC)

I don't plan to request closure for it at any point. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:40, 15 November 2025 (UTC)

No worries! Just wanted to mention it at least. I am surprised by how close the consensus is at the moment. When I initially read your message over on the other thread, I did reluctantly agree. I was conflicted in knowing 7 days was almost certainly not going to be enough time. 14 days minimum is what I had in mind when I posted the RfC. I don't know if I am able to request for a non-involved admin to close it, I only requested for that to prevent the problems this RfC is trying to clarify. It would be nice to just close the lid on this whole thing, but I feel there are probably going to be many more discussions about this topic to come... 11WB (talk) 03:45, 15 November 2025 (UTC)

RFCs should be ended whenever the discussion dies down, regardless of whether that's around day 7 or day 47. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:15, 15 November 2025 (UTC)

I really hope it doesn't go to day 47... though I have seen some that have surpassed even that! I have said to myself that if 48 hours pass with no new messages, at that time I would make a request for closure. I think 48 hours would be long enough to show the discussion is finished. 11WB (talk) 04:24, 15 November 2025 (UTC)

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Splitting

I have been working on this article Gender-critical feminism by country, which I split off from Gender-critical feminism. I have barely finished writing about more than a few countries and have been working on compiling research and literature from a number of other countries, but the article has already reached 5,000 words [9]. I'm not particularly familiar with how splits/spinoffs are supposed to work. Pragmatically I would want to split this article into 3: gender-critical feminism in Asia, gender-critical feminism in Europe, gender-critical feminism in the Americas. But there isn't really significant coverage in independent reliable sources™ about "gender-critical feminism in Asia", there's sources about gender-critical feminism in Japan, China and South Korea, separately.

I guess I'm wondering if the best way to go about a split would be to create those 3 articles (in Asia, in Europe, in the Americas) or if there's a better way to split. Sorry if this doesn't make sense, I was just hoping you might have some insight given your knowledge of these debates. Katzrockso (talk) 07:33, 18 November 2025 (UTC)

Yes, grouping by broad geography is usually okay. You might wait until someone complains about the length, though, as another approach would be to split out only the longest sections (e.g., to un-redirect Gender-critical feminism in the United Kingdom) and have only a short summary in the main article.

This book seems to have at least a little information about specific countries and might be (slightly) useful to you.

Having glanced only briefly at the article, a sentence you copied from Gender-critical feminism caught my eye: "They reject transgender and non-binary identities". I was under the impression that at least some GCFs accept the existence of gender identities, but believe that internal identity is less salient than external factors. See, e.g.,

"It is likely that not every gender-critical feminist supports the gender essentialist position or believes that trans women should be excluded from single-sex spaces and sport...Gender critical feminists situation their oppression as a direct result of their sex.  In other words, the 'physical, economic and social consequences of being born and living with a female body...While I have much to disagree with in gender critical narratives, I do, like Finn Mackay, concede that gender critical views have (like trans rights activists or 'TRA' views) been 'frequently misinterpreted and simplified'.)"[10]

That sentence sounds to me like it is more likely to contribute to that oversimplifcation than would be ideal, and particularly in an article about global differences, perhaps its lead should be more open to potential differences. WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:23, 18 November 2025 (UTC)

I wasn't planning on splitting until it really becomes a problem, but I will have to split at some point because my computer will not open articles that are particularly large, even if nobody complains. Like if I were to try to edit Donald Trump, there would be no hope. I was just worried about rigid thinkers, as you like to put it, that say "there are no SIRS that cover gender-critical feminism in Asia, so it's not notable".

I just copied the lead from Gender-critical feminism, yes. While there are a few GCFs that don't reject gender identity, I contend that it is a general characteristic of GCF to deride/reject 'gender identity'. I have developed a lot of the non-Anglosphere content on the article and I haven't found any examples of GCF that don't oppose the concept of gender identity; the 'moderate' GCF is largely a British academic thing (and these moderate GCFs that are reaching out these theoretical olive branches are typically rooted in a completely different type of feminism than radical feminists). Insofar as most GCFs interrogate the concept of gender identity (which I have been a queer theorist skeptic of for years, so I'm not wedded to the concept at all), acknowledgement of it is usually limited and it is treated as vacuous, ephemeral, etc.

IMO British gender-critical feminists have a unique context that there is a large contingent of them that derive their positions not from radical feminism, but from a more liberal/conservative feminism. Like Kathleen Stock, Maya Forstater, etc none of them have any meaningful connection to traditions of radical feminism. These are the groups that say "well, we recognize gender identity exists but merely believe that sex should remain supreme in matters of law". Globally, radical feminism is by far the main strain of anti-trans/gender-critical feminism: in East Asia, it's largely based on South Korean radical feminism (same in Turkey). France is unique due to its history of feminism, but there is a strain of materialist feminism (that one can interpret as a type of radical feminism) and a more conservative femonationalism, but neither are supportive of gender identity.

There's also the issue that highlighting these academics is focusing on the "ivory tower". The larger gender-critical feminist movement itself does not hold the same positions as the so-called moderates in academia - they're truly a minority. Even acquiescing to basic respect by using trans people's pronouns has gotten Kathleen Stock in hot water. Katzrockso (talk) 09:28, 18 November 2025 (UTC)

Maybe we have different ideas about what it means to "reject" a concept. Do, e.g., the South Korean GCFs believe that they don't have a gender identity as (cis) women?

(Fussing over someone's use of pronouns is at least internally consistent: if someone believed that sex was more important than gender identity and also that pronouns were meant to indicate the more important thing, then of course they'd use pronouns matching the body instead of the mind. The non-anti-trans POV is exactly the opposite: gender identity is more important than sex, and pronouns are meant to indicate the more important thing, so use pronouns that match the mind instead of the body.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:14, 18 November 2025 (UTC)

From my understanding, yes. IME, most radical feminists argue that 'gender identity' is repackaged sex stereotypes, gender roles, etc. There has been a social movement among the gender-critical crowd to self-identify as "gender free" because they are rejecting the concept of gender identity. Where do you think "gender ideology" comes from?

Sheila Jeffreys:

I don’t have a gender. I’ve no intention of having a gender. I don’t do masculinity which is the behavior of male dominance, and I don’t do femininity which is the behavior of female subordination, women’s subordination. I hope to engage in human behavior and I hope at some point in the future everybody will be able to do that too, but gender I definitely do not have.

Jane Clare Jones develops a similar critique in some of her work (god having to go back and reread her sloppy trash is just tiring), calling it 'gender identity essentialism'.

The non-anti-trans POV is exactly the opposite: gender identity is more important than sex, and pronouns are meant to indicate the more important thing, so use pronouns that match the mind instead of the body. I don't believe in a concept of 'gender identity' as a meaningful socially salient concept or believe in such a mind-body dualism to stake pronouns that "match the mind", yet I am 'non-anti-trans' and an advocate for the use of requested pronouns. Katzrockso (talk) 19:56, 18 November 2025 (UTC)

I assumed that "gender ideology", to the extent that a single definition could be said to exist, referred primarily to disagreement with the belief that self-perceived gender identity is more important than reproductive biology, rather than the belief that gender and/or gender identity doesn't exist. I suppose that could be construed as a sort of essentialism on both sides: one says the essential thing that makes me a woman is my internal, self-perceived identity; the other says the essential thing that makes me a woman is my female reproductive system.

I suppose that "repackaged sex stereotypes, gender roles, etc." is the gender-critical answer to how one knows which gender one self-perceives as being correct or relevant for oneself: I feel more affinity for this set of stereotypes and roles; therefore I have this gender identity.

(Please do not re-read any sloppy trash on my behalf.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:34, 18 November 2025 (UTC)

Fundamentally, "gender ideology" as defined and described by these groups is a strawman or caricature of what people actually believe. It's hard to detangle all the various uses of "gender ideology", because it's a phantasmal concept employed by the conservative sector of the anti-gender movement and gender-critical feminists alike.

Yet, what is actually meant by ‘gender ideology’ (along with anti-feminist uses of terms such as ‘genderism’ and ‘gender theory’) has not been clearly defined: as Elżbieta Korolczuk and Agnieszka Graff (2018, p. 799) argue, ‘these terms have become empty signifiers, flexible synonyms for demoralization, abortion, non-normative sexuality, and sex confusion’. This makes them an effective tool in conjuring a moral panic around the breakdown of conventional notions of sex/gender, as evidenced for example in the increasing visibility of the trans liberation movement

From Pearce et al 2020 [11].

I definitely agree that the lead of Gender-critical feminism needs a rewrite, though. Not sure how to tackle that. Katzrockso (talk) 05:11, 21 November 2025 (UTC)

While looking for more sources on gender-critical feminism to work on obtaining more global perspectives, I found this review of Holly Lawford-Smith's book 'Gender-Critical Feminism' by E. Díaz-León [12] [it's available in TWL in the EBSCO catalog]. It states:

These are the conception of gender as identity, on the one hand, and the conception of gender as social norms and expectations, on the other (x–xi). One of her main aims is to offer arguments for the conception of gender as social norms and expectations and against the conception of gender as identity

This is how I understand the gender-critical feminist project. As I may have alluded to above, I am not unsympathetic to a critique of 'gender as identity', indeed I have long been a student of Judith Butler's strain of thinking about 'gender', which doesn't so simply define gender in terms of identity or identity claims, but we can hardly deny that the gender-critical feminism movement is not 'gender-critical' and indeed 'critical' of the conceptualization of gender as identity. This is what I take "rejecting gender identity" to mean, not to deny that trans people or even others may claim to have gender identities, but to reject the political signification of gender identity altogether, that is to deflate it to something inconsequential, lacking validity, etc*. And as I noted above, this often goes as far as to deny the existence of 'gender identity' altogether, often conflating it with 'sexist stereotypes'. Most academic gender-critical feminist philosophers I keep track of have shared Catholic philosopher Tomas Bogardus' critique of gender identity.

[* Of course, as you noted above, there is some diversity of thought within academic GCF, where some 'gender-critical' feminists may not entirely deny any political valence of what they conceptualize as gender identity, like Kathleen Stock who purports to hold some moderate position, but the general trend of both popular and academic GCF is indeed to deny any meaningful representability of gender identity in political discourse]

I hope that makes sense! Katzrockso (talk) 07:13, 21 November 2025 (UTC)

> the lead of Gender-critical feminism needs a rewrite, though. Not sure how to tackle that

That's easy: With grace and patience. The nearest wikijargon term for patience is probably m:eventualism.

> a critique of 'gender as identity'

Presumably this is 'gender as internal identity'. Wouldn't a pre-Renaissance person have thought your True™ identity was the one imposed upon you by your community? You're a baker because your father was a baker, and it doesn't really matter whether you feel any affinity for it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:22, 21 November 2025 (UTC)

Yes, historically identity has been interpellated. I think you can understand the naive concept of an internal gender identity (I don't think "gender as internal identity" is an analytic view that many or really any feminist philosophers who are trans-inclusive hold - the rest of the Díaz-León review makes this clear) as building upon Enlightenment ideas of individuality (Locke, Kant, etc) or maybe even a more existentialist founding (de Beauvoir). Katzrockso (talk) 08:01, 21 November 2025 (UTC)

As for your earlier claim that 'gender identity' is itself a form of essentialism, that may be reflected in the popular monikers and LGBT worksheets spread around, but within academia, most trans-inclusive feminist philosophy isn't wedded to the rational, coherent 'true' self. Judith Butler has been extremely influential for feminist and trans theory and movements worldwide (I was just reading particularly how influential they were for Turkish feminism in particular), and Butler explicitly rejects the notion of a pre-given essence, but rather highlights the fact that the 'self' is already produced socially. When understood in a Butlerian sense, a claim to gender identity is not a claim of an essential self, but in terms of performativity and contingency, or more broadly the contestation of social norms that determine intelligibility. Katzrockso (talk) 08:07, 21 November 2025 (UTC)

[Tangent] I read a few years ago something about the role of performativity in AMAB people. The contrast being highlighted was that one has to do something to "become a man", whereas for AFABs, the source said it's the opposite: one simply "is", because society says so, no matter what one does or doesn't do. The author saw parallels between AMABs either "becoming a man" or "becoming a trans woman" that did not align with the nothing that turns an AFAB into a cis woman. I don't remember whether trans men or non-binary people were discussed. I think the author favored coming of age rituals for AMABs, as a way of reducing anxiety (and therefore both mental health risks and antisocial behavior) about whether or not one had actually achieved manhood yet.

[Reply] I wonder how much of this academic POV is represented in the lead of articles like Gender. I would expect it to be very difficult to remove the "popular monikers and LGBT worksheets" POV from the lead. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:37, 21 November 2025 (UTC)

Question about guideline creation

In relation to Draft:Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Weather events, can you explain or link the process to getting consensus on the guideline? Thanks, ✶Quxyz✶ (talk) 21:01, 18 November 2025 (UTC)

Of particular note, when the RFC is started (assuming that is what needs to be done), can editors take up issue with specific aspects of the proposed guideline and get that changed, or is it an all or nothing situation? ✶Quxyz✶ (talk) 21:03, 18 November 2025 (UTC)

All of the above.

Some people will say that they'd like ____ to change, but support overall. Others will say that ____ is wrong, which proves to them that the whole thing is bad, so they oppose, even if ____ is something that would be easy to change. Consequently it's best to have the proposed page in very good condition first. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:24, 19 November 2025 (UTC)

November music

story · music · places

Look, today's image, - she "portrayed" herself with her husband at the end of the table, - would have been good for Thanksgiving ;) - Thank you for reasonable comments and questions in an RfC. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:12, 24 November 2025 (UTC)

Kinda scared to ask

But what happened last time? Any survivors? Polygnotus (talk) 05:49, 26 November 2025 (UTC)

Is this in reference to using Wikipedia as a comparator for research on website content? It works out about like you'd expect: some things are better, and some things are worse. For facts, we've got research saying that (e.g.,) Wikipedia's medical content is mostly correct and more extensive than a medical school textbook, but of course it's not perfect (nor are textbooks, unfortunately). For politics, researchers seem satisfied to use Wikipedia as a more or less neutral baseline, so it's handy to say that X is more right-wing or more leftist or whatever. WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:10, 26 November 2025 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
	Stopped by your profile, and saw how many essays you've written that I've read/referenced in the past. Some that that jump out that have been particuarlly helpful are WP:USESPS, WP:BMI, and WP:NOTMEDNEWS. Thought you deserved recognition. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 06:29, 26 November 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for the kind words. WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:03, 26 November 2025 (UTC)

Catholics or not Catholics?

I hope you don't mind me jumping into this discussion, having not been involved in the main discussion. You highlight Merriam-Webster's definition which pretty much answers the confusion of who is/isn't a "catholic", a member of a Catholic church, especially Roman Catholic. So yes members of The Roman Catholic Church are commonly referred to as "Catholics" in every day parlance, but they are not the only Catholics (a member of a Catholic church). A prominent example separated from the RadTrads is that of the Eastern Catholic churches, which are formerly sections of ancient churches which broke with their ancient church and moved into communion with the Roman Catholic Church, these churches continue to follow many of their rites outside of the core necessities of the communion, such as using the Eastern rite instead of the Roman rite of the Roman Catholic Church. (Though the Roman Catholic Church does in fact view members of the Eastern Catholic Churches as "Catholics").

Another example we can look to, which is more similar to the RadTrads are the various Sedevacantists who broadly don't recognise the Pope anymore after a specific date (most occurring due to Vatican II), and so do not meet the requirements of being viewed as "Catholic" according to the Roman Catholic Church, but bar that recognition continue all other rituals, rites, and customs of Roman Catholicism, including churches and structures that refer to themselves as "Catholic" in the "Roman Catholic" sense. So these individuals meet Merriam-Webster's definition of being Catholics, just not especially Roman Catholic.

RadTrads vary in orientation, as being a particular flavour of Traditionalist Catholicism (TradCath) some may be Sedevacantists, but there are plenty of TradCaths who recognise the pope while still disagreeing with Vatican II and so observe Pre-Vatican II customs and work within the Church to reverse Vatican II, thus some RadTrads fall into this categorisation, where they do recognise the Pope and partake in Roman Catholic communion but are virulently anti-Vatican II. Now, of course, as you have come across in the article on TradCath, it does state that certain groups are not viewed as being members of the Roman Catholic Church, but these are the specific groups that don't recognise the pope, not all TradCaths. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:14, 27 November 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for this. It was interesting to read. I think my question is: At what point does a group stop being Catholic, no matter what they say? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:52, 27 November 2025 (UTC)

That is a question that I don't really have an answer for, I tend to go by them choosing to no longer identify themselves as capital-C Catholic, as while I understand this does have issues, at such a point, from historical examples, such churches will have also moved away from certain religious aspects that are viewed as identifiers of "Catholics/Catholicism", such as complete transubstantiation, the 'necessity' of works, adherence to the Pope/Papacy, veneration of saints, etc. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 22:15, 27 November 2025 (UTC)

That's my understanding too. It all started with one Catholic church, aka the Roman Catholic Church (improperly a redirect). Now it tries to reserve a patent on the name "catholic", but that's BS, and Wikipedia should not allow the Pope and Roman church to dictate our content on the topic. "Catholic Church" should be the overarching term, with the Roman Catholics the largest undergroup. Note the redirects for the links. At Catholic Church, we find this BS: "The Catholic Church, also known as the Roman Catholic Church" -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 22:34, 27 November 2025 (UTC)

The problem with self-identification is that it doesn't necessarily represent anything 'real'. If the label is the only thing that matters, then the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster could rename itself as "The Catholic Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster", and this definition would call them "a Catholic church".

This reminds me of what @Katzrockso was telling me a little higher on the page about the belief in a coherent internal identity not really holding up under scrutiny. Probably it's not Wikipedia's business to decide who's really a Catholic and who's really not, but it probably is our job to report what others say, and I doubt that "Oh, sure, just believe whatever's painted on the sign" is where the scholarly POV stands. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:09, 28 November 2025 (UTC)

The scholarly POV will depend on which discipline we look at, as theologians will generally have a much stricter definition than religious studies scholars, and then there will be differences between definitions that try to distil a fundamental core. As, picking from a prior mentioned example, veneration of saints can be viewed as a very Roman Catholic thing and can be used a distinguishing metric between Catholicism and many Protestant denominations, but from the Catholic view such veneration isn't that big a thing, whereas from outside the Catholic view you can hear phrasing referring to Catholicism as a "cult of saints", and this is different to actual Saint's cults that have occurred throughout history.

But all such minutiae being said, as Wikipedia should, we would go on a case by case basis on what the scholarship says on particular groups. So, while the Roman Catholic Church may say Sedevacantists are not Catholics, if the published literature refers to them as Catholic, the encyclopedia follows suit. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 09:06, 28 November 2025 (UTC)

I agree that we have to follow the sources. Are the rejected groups usually described with a capital C ("Catholics", not "catholics")? WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:21, 29 November 2025 (UTC)

Assistance with Clouding of Consciousness

Hi @WhatamIdoing, I'm just reaching out to see if you might be able to give your thoughts at Talk:Clouding of consciousness, as I'm having some difficulty deciding how to move forward given the massive breadth of material at my disposal, and the relative open-endedness of the meaning of 'brain fog' in relation to (as much as in comparison to) 'clouding of consciousness'. If you know of any other editors who might be interested in assisting with the page, I'd greatly appreciate your reaching out to them, or advising me on how to go about doing so myself. You'll see my commentary there, as well as a great number of suggestion flags on the page itself; I hope you'll appreciate the additions that have already been made thus far. I hope you're well, and will look forward to your response. I might suggest looking back through the page history since September to see what's changed, as I've tripled the original character count since then. All the best, and thanks in advance - CSGinger14 (talk) 04:49, 29 November 2025 (UTC)

RFCBEFORE

This is bad. We already have an insane number of pointless RfCs that waste huge amounts of editor time. Unilaterally deciding you like them is not enough to change the system like that. I like boldness but only when its a good idea. Polygnotus (talk) 02:17, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

Maybe we can start a meta-RfC where we both present our views side by side? If that turns out to be necessary after a discussion of course. Polygnotus (talk) 02:19, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

What's the basis for your assertion that there are "an insane number" of RFCs?

Do you know how many RFCs are happening each month? Do you know how that compares to five years ago? WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:29, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

This sounds weird, but in some cases you don't really have to keep detailed stats for years to make an assertion; you can just trust that your senses tell you the truth.

RfCs are a sledgehammer. For some jobs you need a sledgehammer. For others... not so much. Using the appropriate tool for the job is easy: you start small and scale up when it doesn't work. Polygnotus (talk) 04:35, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

In some cases you can trust your senses. In this case, the number of RFCs started each month has declined by 33% since five years ago. Therefore, we don't have "an insane number" of RFCs. We might have less personal patience with new editors, but the problem is not the number of RFCs. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:29, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

Wait that causal link is incorrect. What if 5 years ago there was an even insaner deluge? Polygnotus (talk) 16:31, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

It wasn't. And the community isn't struggling to respond to them; we have more respondents than we used to, though some of us IMO are showing less grace than we used to. I've been thinking about proposing official discouragement of "Bad RFC" !votes (not a ban, just a 'maybe consider possibly not doing that very much'). WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:57, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

Well I don't have the statistics. Do you? I just see a bunch of nonsensical RfCs that are a waste of time and do not meet the requirements. Because there is no preceding discussion the actual RfC question is usually not the right one. And often the wording is non-neutral or a false dilemma is presented.

I think the people who point out that an RfC is bad are doing the work the RfC starter should've done, but didn't. I have never seen someone falsely claim that an RFC was a BADRFC or that it didn't meet RFCBEFORE.

Why do you think RfCs that people consider to be bad should be allowed to continue? Can you give any examples of good RfCs where people !voted badrfc incorrectly?

I've been thinking about proposing official discouragement Then can we have some statistics about how many valid RfCs you believe are incorrectly closed? If this is a serious problem it must be easy to list 20 examples, otherwise official guidance would just be instruction creep. Polygnotus (talk) 17:18, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

• See the penultimate question in the FAQ at the top of Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment.
• The requirements for an RFC are: put the rfc tag in a discussion, don't write wildly non-neutral questions, and don't screw up the Wikipedia:Requests for comment/All page formatting (through length, tables, or other methods).
• What is even the meaning of a "false" or "incorrect" !vote for "Bad RFC"? Those !votes don't have a single meaning. Let's talk about this at Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment instead of here.

WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:42, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

• So you also don't have the statistics.
• And follow RFCBEFORE and avoid BADRFC
• That is impolite, I asked you Maybe we can start a meta-RfC where we both present our views side by side? If that turns out to be necessary after a discussion of course. and instead you illustrate the problem by violating both BADRFC and BEFORERFC, if it was an RFC.

So perhaps you should revert yourself, or collapse your comment, and then we can have a normal conversation. Then when we actually understand eachothers point of view we can present our views to the community which can then make an informed decision. We may even find common ground. Polygnotus (talk) 21:24, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

• If you look at the very first words of the FAQ, you will find a direct link to the raw data. I counted them up, and I assume you can do the same.
• RFCBEFORE isn't required, and WP:BADRFC isn't a thing. RFCBEFORE says If you are considering an RfC to resolve a dispute between editors, you should try first to resolve your issues other ways. Try discussing the matter with any other parties on the related talk page. That's "should" in the RFC 2119 sense, as in "there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a particular item", as in "not must".
• I think I already understand you: You are unhappy with the quality of the questions you see in RFCs, and you think that adding some procedural requirements will improve the average quality.

WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:57, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

• I counted them up, and I assume you can do the same C'mon, we don't have to speak on that level do we? Yes, I can count. We may disagree, but that does not mean I am too dumb to be able to count.
• RFCBEFORE isn't required That is your view, yet people have closed bad rfcs a bunch of times citing it, and a majority of the community thinks it is and should be. WP:BADRFC isn't a thing. because you had it deleted because you disagree with it. Note that this is the naming standard, look for redirect that are called WP:BAD and you'll find its not the only one. That's "should" in the RFC 2119 sense we already talked about that, humans do not follow RFC 2119 and you are well aware of that.
• I think I already understand you A very bad assumption to make. you think that adding some procedural requirements I didn't propose adding requirements so you clearly do not understand my POV.

Polygnotus (talk) 23:02, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

"Humans" may not follow RFC 2119, but when I'm writing pages such as WP:RFC, I do. The word in RFCBEFORE is should because that's the correct balance between encouragement and requirement.

I suggest that you look at the prior discussions, such as Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Archive 21#If RFCbefore is needed before starting a RFC, would it help if policy explicitly required RFC openers to add a link to the RFCbefore along with the RFC statement? and Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Archive 20#WP:RFCBEFORE often ignored and Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Archive 20#Malformed RFCs: what’s the process for dealing with them? and Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Archive 20#Previous discussion. None of them concluded that RFCBEFORE is mandatory, and a proposal to change that should to a must failed.

(If you don't want to count the RFCs yourself, then I posted a summary last year.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:25, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing But the audience who reads that page does not know of that RFC. I know that you know exactly what MUST and SHOULD mean, in the context of that RfC. But we have a very diverse community.

Some Wikipedians are not native speakers (like me). Some Wikipedians are not computer nerds (for reasons beyond my understanding).

When talking PaGs (and essays and information pages and whatever) the writers intentions are irrelevant; how the readers interpret the text is. Polygnotus (talk) 23:30, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

The audience that reads that page does not know what RFC 2119 says. They need to know that the ordinary dictionary definition of should is different from the ordinary dictionary definition of must. People who are not native English speakers should be pleased to learn that I do not write the word should (indicating that something is recommended but not required) when something is actually required. WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:15, 3 December 2025 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing I think the art of precise interpretation of text is kinda lost on the newer generations. Tiktok is not good for the brain imo.

So one part is people not being able to parse text, and another is people reading what they want the text to say, which sometimes is not the same as what the text actually says.

I think we agree on this bit. Polygnotus (talk) 08:18, 3 December 2025 (UTC)

And thanks for the links. I can't read them right now but I will soonish. Polygnotus (talk) 23:45, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

The first one is not about requiring RFCBEFORE, it is about requiring the inclusion of a link to preceding discussions in the RfC opening statement.

The second link is about making WP:RFCBEFORE more prominent. The other is a more specific concern that a particular RFC is going to end up with the "wrong" result, whereas if the rest of the community hadn't been invited to join the conversation, then the "right" answer could have prevailed. sounds like an assumption of bad faith to me, so consider yourself trouted.

The third one is someone asking what the process is of dealing with malformed RfCs. Someone you might be familiar with wrote: it looks like the immediate problem was solved by removing the tag. So it sounds like you are saying that closing the RfC is a good idea.

The last one is someone saying they would like stronger wording to emphasize that people need to follow RFCBEFORE. This is something we often see; the community wants RFCBEFORE to be more strictly enforced and your view that it is no reason to close an RfC is in the minority.

a proposal to change that should to a must failed No it didn't, you were the only one who responded and it fizzled out because it was on a page with few watchers.

I don't think I fully understand your reasoning for defending RfCs.

If you just like their ability to attract the attention of more editors then we can achieve the same thing with other WP:DR procedures.

The reason I am no fan of RfCs is their inherent flaws, we could also explore options to reduce those. For example, people often write a biased opening statement where they misrepresent what happened and use a strawman (not always intentional, sometimes people just don't understand the other party's POV). And then just below that they get to post the first !vote which is often also a wall of text. Sometimes they even ping some people who they think will agree. When someone with a different viewpoint comes along they have to go against the tide and they have a clear disadvantage (you and I read everything, but a lot of people just skim). One way to partially solve that problem would be to have 2 parties present their POV side by side (difficult on mobile tho). Polygnotus (talk) 06:36, 2 December 2025 (UTC)

• The first one is about whether RFCBEFORE is mandatory. The OP asked "If RFCbefore is needed before starting a RFC, would it help if policy explicitly required RFC openers to add a link to the RFCbefore" and was told that RFCBEFORE is not required, and therefore we did not require a link to prove that prior discussions happened. It is therefore relevant as evidence that there is no consensus to require RFCBEFORE discussions.
• The second one says "WP:RFCBEFORE often ignored" and complains that "RFCs are frequently started after no discussion, or extremely minimal discussion" and that the question was prompted because "a RFC suddenly appeared on a matter which had not even been discussed". There is nobody in that discussion saying that RFCBEFORE is mandatory, which is evidence that there is no consensus to require RFCBEFORE discussions.
• The third one says "There was no current or recent discussion (the last one was May), so this fails RFCBEFORE", and the reply is "RFCBEFORE isn't absolutely mandatory anyway". The tag was removed for non-RFCBEFORE reasons. This one is important because it is evidence of editors claiming RFCBEFORE even when the person claiming no RFCBEFORE discussions admits that there were, in fact, prior discussions (see "recent discussion (the last one was May)"). It therefore provides evidence that making RFCBEFORE be "mandatory" would be abused.
• The fourth is a proposal to change the RFCBEFORE text to say "Editors must thoroughly discuss a matter on a talk page before initiating an RfC" (bolding in the original), and it utterly failed to gain support. If my opposition were actually "in the minority", then you would be able to name multiple supporters of that proposal – but as you already know, you'll find none in that discussion. Not one single editor spoke up in favor of that proposal. And despite your assertion, that talk page is on 1,583 watchlists. Dozens of editors look at it each month; it has averaged 700 page views per month for the last year. WT:RFC is not some obscure corner where nobody is paying attention.

If you're not a fan of RFCs, then please take your name off the Wikipedia:Feedback request service and stop participating in them (unless you happen to see one that you actually want to participate in). WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:31, 3 December 2025 (UTC)

1. Like I stated before, I don't actually think there can be no exceptions to RFCBEFORE, and I don't actually think we should force all people to follow it in all cases. You keep arguing as if I believe things I don't, which is confusing.
2. There is nobody in that discussion saying that RFCBEFORE is mandatory, which is evidence that there is no consensus to require RFCBEFORE discussions. That doesn't follow, but again this is irrelevant.
3. The tag was removed for non-RFCBEFORE reasons ...It therefore provides evidence that making RFCBEFORE be "mandatory" would be abused. So what I am saying is that there are valid reasons other than not following RFCBEFORE to close an RfC. And yes, any rule or "rule" will be abused. It is one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't situations.
4. But that would be a proposal I disagree with, because I believe there are cases in which it is valid to close an RfC for not having a preceding discussion, but I also believe there are cases in which it is not valid to do that. So that shows that people agree with me?

If you're not a fan of RFCs, then please take your name off the Wikipedia:Feedback request service and stop participating in them Why? I am not a railfan but I do ride the train sometimes. Polygnotus (talk) 08:51, 3 December 2025 (UTC)

1. You say that now, but when you edited the page in the middle of a dispute over you closing an RFC at Talk:Canada, you included no exceptions or limitations. Additionally, you have objected saying that we don't force people to follow it in all cases. If you actually believe what you claim here, then why don't you put your now-belief back on to the WP:RFC page?
2. People had an opportunity to say it was required, and they didn't. That is relevant.
3. Oh, yes, there are many valid reasons other than not following RFCBEFORE to end an RFC – though that's not what you put in WP:RFC back in July, and not related to what you removed from WP:RFCBEFORE recently.
4. There are no cases in which it is valid for someone (other than the OP; the OP can end an RFC whenever they want, for any reason or none) to end an RFC exclusively because of the absence of a preceding discussion. There are cases in which it is valid to end an RFC because the RFC is a mess, and in such cases we may have a suspicion that an RFCBEFORE discussion would have prevented the mess, but in those cases the RFC should be ended because it is a mess – not because of the absence of an RFCBEFORE discussion. If we believe a discussion should use a non-RFC form, then the correct thing to do is to suggest to the OP that they voluntarily withdraw the RFC themselves, and try a different/better/quicker approach.

WhatamIdoing (talk) 09:19, 3 December 2025 (UTC)

Oh man I can't even find the comments I am supposed to reply to any more in all this text.

1. Debating me would be far easier if I would have a bunch of immutable and very extreme opinions. Sometimes people who debate me think I do, but sadly I live in a grey world. I am very jealous of those freedom fighters who know everything and are able to judge all people and actions (but I also think they should be jailed). Still, being certain of stuff would be nice in a quantum universe. Note that I added it as one of the reasons that a discussion may be closed, to reflect reality; I didn't say this must always or must never happen, or only with these limitations or exceptions. That sounds more policy pagey to me, and less information pagey. If you actually believe what you claim here, then why don't you put your now-belief back on to the WP:RFC page? Not sure I follow. I fundamentally believe in IAR, except when I am bored.
2. Maybe.
3. I don't think this sentence makes sense.
4. There are no cases in which it is valid for someone (other than the OP; the OP can end an RFC whenever they want, for any reason or none) to end an RFC exclusively because of the absence of a preceding discussion. You keep repeating that claim but I don't really agree with that, sorry. In some cases having an RfC without preceding discussion is just a waste of time and in my opinion it would be fine to simply close the RfC and ask some people for opinions in a freeform discussion.

If we believe a discussion should use a non-RFC form, then the correct thing to do is to suggest to the OP that they voluntarily withdraw the RFC themselves Decent chance that will be interpreted by the RfC starter the way you appear to do: "oh they are just worried they will 'lose'". So to me that doesn't sound like a great idea. Polygnotus (talk) 09:47, 3 December 2025 (UTC)

Do you understand that an RFC is really not supposed to be a vote, and that you can have a freeform discussion even while the RFC tag stays on the section? You don't need to close the RfC before you can ask some people for opinions in a freeform discussion. You can just leave the RFC tag alone and proceed straight to asking for opinions and having an ordinary discussion. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:38, 3 December 2025 (UTC)

Yeah that is kinda my point. We seem to mostly agree despite our very different approach.

I agree that RfC is really not supposed to be a vote. But in practice this is the way it is treated unfortunately.

And you probably need more than one person to turn an ongoing RfC into a normal discussion if a bunch of people have already !voted election-style.

I think the consensus from a free-form discussion, wherein there is less framing and there is no limited list of options to pick, is much stronger.

I think that if we must have RfCs (which I do think have a place, in limited circumstances, for example when the question is something simple like "Should X be promoted to policy?") then people should be able to add their own options for example. Polygnotus (talk) 02:52, 4 December 2025 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2025_March_1#Wikipedia:BADRFC was a bad decision, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:AllPages?from=BAD&to=&namespace=4

What should've happened is that the page was improved, not that the redirect was deleted. Polygnotus (talk) 06:46, 2 December 2025 (UTC)

I can't imagine why you think that WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is a valid argument. I suggested deleting or repointing a new and potentially confusing shortcut. Other editors (NB: not just me) decided that deletion was preferable. Only the person who created the redirect wanted to keep it. This isn't the typical characteristics of a bad decision at RFD. But if you really think it was a bad decision, then you should first ask the admin who deleted it, and if he doesn't agree to undelete it, then you can appeal the decision at Wikipedia:Deletion review. And if you don't think that would change the decision, then maybe it wasn't a "bad decision" after all. Maybe it was just "a decision you personally dislike". WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:35, 3 December 2025 (UTC)

But its not an OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument, so I am unsure why you bring that up.

I know of the existence of deletion reviews. Polygnotus (talk) 08:43, 3 December 2025 (UTC)

You're telling me that WP:BADRFC shouldn't have been deleted because there are other, unrelated shortcuts that begin with WP:BAD. That's an OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument. WhatamIdoing (talk) 09:20, 3 December 2025 (UTC)

No, I said that this was a naming convention.

OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is about if other stuff exists; it is not about if other stuff uses the same naming convention.

Following a naming conventions makes life easier. Polygnotus (talk) 09:23, 3 December 2025 (UTC)

A naming convention is also stuff that exists, and we have no naming convention that says a section focused on alternatives to a process should be called WP:BADPROCESS. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:39, 3 December 2025 (UTC)

Indeed, but the reason OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is a bad argument is because of the fact that it points to the existence of other articles as proof that this article also deserves to exist.

Pointing to a naming convention to say that something has an appropriate name is fundamentally different of course.

And it is easy to remember "oh arguments against/problems with can be found when I type WP:BADWHATEVER", or at least easier than if there was no naming convention. Polygnotus (talk) 02:56, 4 December 2025 (UTC)

Can you do me a favour and not add in my comments? Thanks. You do realize I am the inventor of the far superior ^{[Trust me bro]} right? Use that one if you must. Polygnotus (talk) 08:25, 3 December 2025 (UTC)

Use it yourself, if you want. I suggest not asserting that the majority prefers something when you can't find a single discussion in which the majority has said anything like that, and I've already given you multiple discussions in which the majority didn't say that, or even said the opposite. WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:36, 3 December 2025 (UTC)

I've already given you multiple discussions in which the majority didn't say that, or even said the opposite. Pretty sure I have read the links you posted, but I haven't seen that. Polygnotus (talk) 08:41, 3 December 2025 (UTC)

I do have some ideas on how to attract people to discussions on low traffic talkpages with few watchers btw.

If we do this, WikiProjects become useful.

The next step would be to have a bot that generates a page that lists discussions on talkpages within the topic area of the WikiProject, chronologically. If it posts the lists in my userspace I don't even need a botflag and it can be transcluded on the WikiProjects pages. It could add some basic stats like the amount of participants in the discussion. Polygnotus (talk) 16:10, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

Wikipedia:A WikiProject is a group of people. The main problem with most "WikiProjects" is that there are no/too few people there to respond to anything. We have something on the order of 2,000 WikiProjects. If we want them to be active, IMO the first step is to merge until we only have a couple hundred. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:31, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

Category:Active_WikiProjects lists 652, and you probably aren't surprised that most aren't actually active. User:Polygnotus/inactivewikiprojects Polygnotus (talk) 16:32, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

The semi-active, inactive, and defunct ones are the ones that need to be merged up. I haven't looked at in detail, but my overall impression is that we need more than 200, but probably less than 500. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:58, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

Not sure I follow sorry. What is the point of merging something that is inactive or defunct? I thought you were talking about merging the ones that are (somewhat) active. Polygnotus (talk) 17:13, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

To increase the likelihood that if you're working on the article Example, there will be a WikiProject banner tag at the top of Talk:Example that will lead you to a place where you can realistically get a question answered.

For example, Wikipedia:WikiProject First aid is long since dead, and should be redirected to Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine/Emergency medicine and EMS task force. (We would have years ago, except it wasn't quite dead at the time, and one lone editor objected.) Wikipedia:WikiProject Alternative medicine should probably become a task force of Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine, with the talk page redirected to the group's main talk page. There's no point in posting something to WT:ALTMED right now; the "Number of page watchers who visited in the last 30 days" is just two, and one of those is me. Experienced editors already know that if you've got a problem in an AltMed article, then WT:MED and WP:FTN are the places to go. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:53, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

But the problem is that that would require starting a bunch of new WikiProjects.

And in some cases people who are interested in a subtopic would also be interested in the overarching topic, but sometimes (often?) that is not the case.

And I don't really see a way for one person to start a bunch of WikiProjects and decide that whoever is part of wikiprojects that cover subtopics should now forcibly be moved to the overarching wikiproject.

Someone who is interested in, lets say Albania (e.g. because they live there) is not necessarily interested in WikiProject Balkans.

To make matters even worse you'd also have to redirect all sub-wikiprojects to the overarching one, which people will certainly not appreciate. Polygnotus (talk) 21:16, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

• I'm talking about merging WikiProjects, not creating new ones. WikiProject-Long-Dead-History and WikiProject-Defunct-History get merged into Wikipedia:WikiProject History. We started with three, and we end up with one. So far, the people who have been doing this work have never thought it helpful to create a new one.
• In the case of the awkward subtopic (Does WikiProject History of science belong to WikiProject History, or WikiProject Science?), we propose merging it as a WP:TASKFORCE.
• We don't force anyone to merge. We make a proposal, wait for responses, and abandon it if there are any objections. There's a guideline for how to handle this.

WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:07, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

Well I am happy to (try to) help with any proposal, but I worry that people will object (despite the merger possibly resulting in a more viable project). Polygnotus (talk) 23:09, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

I think that only two WikiProjects have ever objected (probably due more to careful selection of long-dead groups than anything else), but all we do in such cases is say "No problem, we won't do it" and go away at the earliest hint of opposition. Since WikiProjects are groups of people (rather than subject areas), there's nothing to be gained by trying to force a merger. You can't make volunteers work together just because you think "WikiProject Tulips" and "WikiProject Lilies" ought to be friends. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:30, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

In my limited experience, WikiProjects are often dominated by one or two or three users who sometimes try to put some rules on the WikiProject page (bit like an SNG). If you merge 2 WikiProjects into one, these people might fear losing their ability to set the rules.

Looking at the allegedly active wikiprojects:

Wikipedia:WikiProject UK geography / Wikipedia:WikiProject United Kingdom

Wikipedia:WikiProject Astronomy / Wikipedia:WikiProject Astronomical objects

Wikipedia:WikiProject Days of the year / Wikipedia:WikiProject Years

Wikipedia:WikiProject Highways / Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. Roads / Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. Streets

Wikipedia:WikiProject Stations / Wikipedia:WikiProject UK Railways

Wikipedia:WikiProject Christianity / Wikipedia:WikiProject Catholicism / Wikipedia:WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy / Wikipedia:WikiProject Oriental Orthodoxy / Wikipedia:WikiProject Reformed Christianity

Wikipedia:WikiProject Sports / Wikipedia:WikiProject Athletics

Wikipedia:WikiProject American Open Wheel Racing / Wikipedia:WikiProject Formula One / Wikipedia:WikiProject Motorsport

Wikipedia:WikiProject Motorcycle racing / Wikipedia:WikiProject Motorcycling

Wikipedia:WikiProject Animals / Wikipedia:WikiProject Biology / Wikipedia:WikiProject Mammals / Wikipedia:WikiProject Birds / Wikipedia:WikiProject Fishes / Wikipedia:WikiProject Amphibians and Reptiles / Wikipedia:WikiProject Arthropods / Wikipedia:WikiProject Insects / Wikipedia:WikiProject Spiders

Another idea would be to use something like the Dewey Decimal System, where you create them in advance, not on demand. Another idea would to automatically invite people, or even to just automatically put them in a WikiProject, based on their contributions (using something like User:Polygnotus/PAWS/cat2users which filters out gnomes). I'm talking about merging WikiProjects, not creating new ones. I am not so sure an overarching WikiProject exists in all cases. I can imagine there are situations where there is a gap. Polygnotus (talk) 07:13, 2 December 2025 (UTC)

You really should discuss these ideas at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Council (which, despite the name, is a noticeboard for people trying to support WikiProjects). WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:39, 3 December 2025 (UTC)

Well, I was kinda hoping to use your brain and maybe collaborate with you on a proposal. As you can see some of these are just quick ideas, and others are more developed.

If I am the enemy because of an incredibly minor and unimportant disagreement about a few words in an information page then we can just delete Wikipedia and move on with our lives; nothing will get done if people have to agree 100% before collaborating.

If you 100% agree with me then your opinion is worthless to me. Polygnotus (talk) 09:07, 3 December 2025 (UTC)

You should post them at WT:COUNCIL because other editors have brains, too. The regulars there don't expect perfection in proposals, and a couple of them may be interested. WhatamIdoing (talk) 09:25, 3 December 2025 (UTC)

Merging is your idea, maybe you should present that one.

You wrote We started with three, and we end up with one. So far, the people who have been doing this work have never thought it helpful to create a new one. Who are those people? Maybe they have ideas. Polygnotus (talk) 13:02, 3 December 2025 (UTC)

Maybe you could actually look at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Council?

I'm not pointing you to a random page. This is the page that has been discussing these kinds of ideas for years now. I don't need to present my idea about merging WikiProjects there, because it wasn't my idea originally, and because we are way beyond the stage of "ideas". This is an established process.

Go glance briefly through Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Guide (an official, community-supported sitewide guideline), and then read Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Guide/Merging WikiProjects, which I wrote last year when we were working on standardizing some of the technical steps in the process. Then post your ideas at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Council. It's possible that some of your specific groupings might inspire someone to start a merge process. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:45, 3 December 2025 (UTC)

I have made a few edits, but I never got very interested in WikiProjects because they, to me, seemed vestigial.

So to me, all that is new, including the existence of a WikiProject Council.

But you did give me inspiration for a userscript that lists subpages of the current page. Thanks! Polygnotus (talk) 03:01, 4 December 2025 (UTC)

Maybe your initial question about how to explain the non-mandatory nature of WP:RFCBEFORE should be discussed at Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment instead of here. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:03, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

I don't think RFCBEFORE is non-mandatory, or should be.

If you want to make it non-mandatory you could start a conversation there. But since it is a bad idea we can probably talk about it first and then if you still think it should be made non-mandatory then we can have a wider discussion there. Polygnotus (talk) 17:12, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

RFCBEFORE is already non-mandatory because it has always been non-mandatory, and if you want to change that, you have to get consensus for the change. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:54, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

No, as discussed previously, the holy texts say what one wants to read. You made a bold move to introduce a new rule, and got reverted. Polygnotus (talk) 21:07, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

No, I made a frustrated move to write what the rule actually is, and has always been, in language clear enough that it couldn't be mistaken by people trying to shut down an RFC over the fear that they're going to lose, and got reverted by you. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:28, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

Well, I am sorry if I added to your frustration. But I am trying to do the right thing here.

And I don't really participate in RfCs often and I try not to see Wikipedia in terms of losing and winning. I have seen people shut down RfCs not because they were afraid of 'losing', but to save everyone some time. Or because a RFC statement was incredibly far from neutral. Or because the RfC had become irrelevant at the third response. I was kinda surprised by the first example you gave over here because to me that is a perfect example of what we don't want. We don't want to give COI editors the ability to waste even more of everyones time by repeatedly asking the other parent which is a force multiplier because it allows them to waste the time of a whole bunch of people. Having them randomly ping 20 people would also not be allowed. Them being told 'no' and moving on is exactly what should happen. We both know examples of people who will happily start 8 RfCs a week if they think it would help them achieve their goals. Polygnotus (talk) 23:32, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

IMO RFCs are "won" when a consensus is formed, and "lost" when the dispute is not resolved.

Having COI editors and POV pushers use the RFC process is not wasting people's time. It is often saving people's time in the long run, because an RFC that says "No, you absolutely may not put that garbage in our article" is evidence of a consensus that will be durable over time. Every time the UPE or POV pusher comes back to say "but can't we put just a little bit of this garbage in here?", they'll get smacked with that RFC. Them moving on after being told 'no' is exactly what isn't happening, and that's why we have their RFCs. They do generally move on after an RFC – and when they don't do so voluntarily, we'll make them.

Also, it's a lot more likely to be 10 editors than 20 responding, and nobody's starting 8 RFCs a week any longer, because that's (gently) against the rules now. I think we only had to ban one or two editors to get that message across to would-be frequent flyers. WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:45, 3 December 2025 (UTC)

Having COI editors and POV pushers use the RFC process is not wasting people's time. It is often saving people's time in the long run, because an RFC that says "No, you absolutely may not put that garbage in our article" is evidence of a consensus that will be durable over time. Interesting thought, but I don't think I fully agree with that. Especially since it is more likely that there is 1 POV pusher than 10, and CONSENSUSCANCHANGE.

Every time the UPE or POV pusher comes back to say "but can't we put just a little bit of this garbage in here?", they'll get smacked with that RFC. I agree it is possible that this happens, but I can't recall ever seeing that.

They do generally move on after an RFC – and when they don't do so voluntarily, we'll make them. Hm, in my experience POV pushers (baddies) don't really give a shit that a large majority disagrees with them. They and only they know the true Truth with the capital T.

Also, it's a lot more likely to be 10 editors than 20 responding, and nobody's starting 8 RFCs a week any longer, because that's (gently) against the rules now. I think we only had to ban one or two editors to get that message across to would-be frequent flyers. I don't know the stats but I'll trust you on that. I have seen a bunch of RfCs that are... not great but if you are saying the quantity reduces then I hope that the quality will also improve. Polygnotus (talk) 08:56, 3 December 2025 (UTC)

Looking at this, it looks like your experience was something like:: "I want to solicit feedback but no one is responding, I couldn't edit further without that feedback and there was no 'dispute' so using Dispute Resolution is weird".

I understand the frustration this might cause, but I do think there are quite a few avenues you could've used. The advice given by InfiniteNexus is sound, and there is also stuff like Discord and IRC and the talkpage of someone who has a brain.

But it feels like this personal experience may have been the inspiration behind this push to make the RfC the ultimate unstoppable weapon of Wiki-destruction, and I don't think that that is a good idea.

The situation you were in was pretty rare, and there were multiple solutions other than an RfC. And no one is gonna close it if you start an RfC asking for some opinions

The type of RfCs that should be closed are (in a very large majority of cases, but not always) started by inexperienced people or POVpushers who disagree with the consensus.

I have the personal experience of dealing with RfCs that are not written neutrally, do not ask the right question, have zero preceding discussion, et cetera, (and I have never been on the other side) which is why I approach this very differently.

Your idea of removing the requirements and people's ability to close bad RfCs appears to be a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, since no one told you to follow RFCBEFORE and no one closed your RfC as far as I can see. I asked for statistics about how many valid RfCs you believe are incorrectly closed and received none. I also asked Can you give any examples of good RfCs where people !voted badrfc incorrectly? and of the 5 links you provided none were closed and none !voted incorrectly (although you free to disagree with their opinion of course).

If someone dares close an RfC you started just ping me and I'll happily re-open it. I am also fine with adding "RfCs started by WhatamIdoing may not be closed by non-admins" to the PaGs.

I think the goal of writing PaGs/essays/rules is to not have to explain the same thing over and over again to new editors. So someone who writes them is kinda immune, you know? Polygnotus (talk) 10:32, 2 December 2025 (UTC)

I did manage to find an RfC you started wherein 2 people said it was a bad RfC.

Talk:Black_Irish_(folklore)/Archive_2#Differentiating_between_the_real_people_and_the_false_origin_story

In that case, the wording of the RfC could indeed be better (I would frame it in terms of article scope, not myth vs reality: Should this article be about the people described by this term or about the alleged origin story)

You are of course correct that the fact that the origin story is false does not mean that the people don't exist. And I don't think that the RfC was so bad it unfairly influenced the result. But of course identity is a sensitive topic. Polygnotus (talk) 13:39, 2 December 2025 (UTC)

You still haven't figured out the depth and breadth of my experience with RFCs yet, have you? I've started a couple dozen RFCs (the median is zero, by a lot; the median of those who have ever started any RFC is one, also by a lot). I've helped other editors draft dozens of RFCs. I've posted hundreds of comments in RFCs. I've probably looked at a couple thousand RFCs. There are few editors who have contributed more to Wikipedia:Requests for comment or its subpages since Wikipedia started having RFCs, and none that have posted more often to Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment.

And in the face of all of my experience, you pull out one example from 2016, and another from almost two years ago, and speculate on whether those two – out of hundreds or thousands of RFCs – shaped my opinion, and whether I might worry that someone might dare to close an RFC that I opened. No, that's not likely to happen, and if it does, I'm confident that I can handle it without your assistance.

I've got no problem with ending RFCs. I do it myself on occasion, and I don't remember anyone ever reverting me (or if they did, it didn't stick). I have two separate concerns:

• Writing a rule (which you did) that editors can end an RFC over an alleged RFCBEFORE failure. Let me be clear about this: If an editor wants to end an RFC, they need to give a different excuse for ending it. "Ugh, what a terrible mess" is an acceptable reason to end an RFC (assuming that it actually is a terrible mess and the editor isn't already identified as part of the opposition. If the latter is relevant, then they should get someone else [e.g., me] to end the RFC for them and say that it's a terrible mess). "You didn't follow RFCBEFORE" is an invalid excuse for ending an RFC. Editors should not give that excuse when they end an RFC. They should give a different excuse. This is not complicated:
  If you repeat false rumors about RFCBEFORE being mandatory → I'm not happy.
  Change the words in the edit summary/comment to not mention RFCBEFORE → I'm happy.
• Editors !voting "Bad RFC" when they need to be !voting "Oppose". Posting a !vote of "Bad RFC" doesn't mean the editor is trying to end the RFC. It often means they are unhappy and worried about the result.

WhatamIdoing (talk) 09:08, 3 December 2025 (UTC)

I don't sit around for weeks (months?) reading your 19 years of contributions on Wikipedia.

speculate on whether those two – out of hundreds or thousands of RFCs – shaped my opinion No, I used Wikipedias horrible search system to find RfCs that contained your name and the string "badrfc" or "bad rfc". The Black Irish one was the only one I could find where I can imagine you disagreeing with the persons who wrote that. And, like I said, in that case I don't think the RfC should've been closed, and it wasn't.

I've got no problem with ending RFCs. Great. We agree that closing RfCs can be a good idea.

• Like I said, I have seen an RfC where after like 2 or 3 comments the need for the RfC was completely gone, and it was clear that the question was irrelevant. So in that case I would think closing for not following RFCBEFORE would make sense. I am not proposing closing all RfCs with that reason all the time.
• Posting a !vote of "Bad RFC" doesn't mean the editor is trying to end the RFC. It often means they are unhappy and worried about the result. Agreed, obviously. And you can be worried about the result in a good-faith way (not just "the majority might !vote against my wishes").

Polygnotus (talk) 09:14, 3 December 2025 (UTC)

If the need for an RFC is resolved after two or three comments, then you should invite the OP to pull the rfc tag. In such cases, you don't say "because of not following RFCBEFORE". You say "because consensus has been reached" or "because your question seems to have been answered".

See WP:RFCEND: "The question may be withdrawn by the poster (e.g., if the community's response became obvious very quickly)" and "Please remove the {{rfc}} tag when the dispute has been resolved, or when discussion has ended." That second sentence is even underlined in the original.

BTW, if you plan to do this in the future, you should also read the FAQ about leaving RFCs open for at least a week – unless you're clearly losing. WhatamIdoing (talk) 09:32, 3 December 2025 (UTC)

There is no losing and winning.

If the need for an RFC is resolved after two or three comments, then you should invite the OP to pull the rfc tag. This was what I would describe as a baddie, who knew the whole Truth.

People who know the Truth are very unlikely to listen to us dumb people who don't even know or believe in the Truth they hold so dear.

But yes, in an ideal world that is what would've happened. Polygnotus (talk) 09:35, 3 December 2025 (UTC)

I reverted myself. I don't agree but I get easily bored. Polygnotus (talk) 15:45, 3 December 2025 (UTC)

Limits of RS

Hi WAID, I thought of our recent exchange at WP:RS while editing this page. I'm editing Neapolitan ragù at the moment, and I am citing an English-language source from 2004 to say the dish is typically made for Sunday lunch. On the Italian wiki, however, Google Translate tells me "Originally, it was a Sunday dish [but today] Neapolitan ragù is a typically festive dish". The page gets ~100 views a day, and has said this, pretty much in the lead, for at least 15 years. I don't plan on citing it, and I'll have a look to see if newspapers etc in Italian are reporting the same thing, but it amused me that I could have such difficulty justifying not citing Wikipedia. Rollinginhisgrave (talk | edits) 22:36, 2 December 2025 (UTC)

I'm happy that the article mentions "gravy". WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:47, 3 December 2025 (UTC)

Check in

Hiya. I just wanted to say that the Bad RfC discussion seemed like a little bit of a pile on. I don’t know what I’m trying to say exactly… Just hope it’s not too stressful and more importantly, that hoping I didn’t add to the stress. Dw31415 (talk) 22:21, 4 December 2025 (UTC)

Some Wikipedians, including me, are verbose, so mere size isn't always a good proxy of stress, especially if one of the editors seems to react better to detailed and comprehensive replies rather than a quick handwave at the general idea. Your comments did not add to my stress.

I think that discussion has identified several areas of confusion, particularly:

• What's "an RFCBEFORE discussion" mean? It's supposed to mean that someone attempted an ordinary discussion on the talk page, but I think some editors believe that it means you're supposed to have a discussion that workshops the RFC question itself. (The reason I think this is because someone saying "Is this actually something we should put in this article?" would not prevent that person from then opening a completely biased RFC question.)
• Some editors want to be able to forcibly stop other people's RFCs. Who is allowed to do that, and under what circumstances? (The answer is all the usual rules, such as the ones we'd use for hatting or blanking someone else's talk page comment.)

I don't think we can address those right now, but perhaps in the future. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:07, 5 December 2025 (UTC)

Did you see Poly reverted his revert? Just making sure that didn't get lost in the many threads. Dw31415 (talk) 01:56, 5 December 2025 (UTC)

Yes, thank you, I did see that today. I appreciate you taking the time to make sure it didn't get lost. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:48, 5 December 2025 (UTC)

BTW, hat-tip for "You know what would be really the best, lowest-drama thing to do here?" Dw31415 (talk) 02:21, 5 December 2025 (UTC)

Hey

I'm fairly confident I've spoken with you multiple times before. Do you recognize me? Wikieditor662 (talk) 22:25, 5 December 2025 (UTC)

According to this, we crossed paths at User talk:Larry Sanger/Nine Theses. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:13, 6 December 2025 (UTC)

Wow, that tool would literally help me with so many things. And I cannot believe we met a total of 40 times! Thank you! How did you find that tool? Wikieditor662 (talk) 00:27, 6 December 2025 (UTC)

Most tools spread by word of mouth, but big ones like that are announced at the Village pumps when they're created. If you're curious about scripts and tools, then you can look at m:User:WhatamIdoing/global.js to see some of the ones I use regularly, across all the wikis. You can make a global Javascript page at Meta-Wiki (create that at m:User:Wikieditor662/global.js) or the same things work locally here (create Special:MyPage/common.js). WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:07, 6 December 2025 (UTC)

I appreciate it a lot! On another note, what are your thoughts on Wikipedia in general, if you don't mind me asking? Do you think it has any problems? Wikieditor662 (talk) 01:42, 6 December 2025 (UTC)

However many articles there are, there are at least that many problems. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:39, 6 December 2025 (UTC)