Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lackthereof

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Whilst originally the consensus was heading towards deletion, sources were found part way through the AfD and all comments after that were leaning towards keep, hence the result. Ryan Postlethwaite^{See the mess I've created or let's have banter} 09:12, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lackthereof

Contested prod. Rather obviously fails WP:MUSIC and lacks non-trivial coverage by reliable third party sources. JBsupreme (talk) 07:20, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT (talk) 10:37, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Danny Seim doesn't seem to have an article, and his solo project seems no more notable. Stifle (talk) 12:36, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry about last night, my connectivity dropped while I was in the midst of completing step 2 of the nomination. In any case I believe that this should be deleted for the reasons I've outlined above as nominator. JBsupreme (talk) 14:16, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per original PROD for now pending more information from the de-prodder. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 14:48, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete fails notabillity per WP:MUSIC. abf /talk to me/ 15:21, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
~~Speedy~~ Keep - Passes WP:MUSIC notablilty requirements: "Has released two or more albums on a major label or one of the more important indie labels (i.e. an independent label with a history of more than a few years and a roster of performers, many of which are notable)." Albums Christian the Christian and My Haunted were released on the label FILMguerrero, which was founded in 1998 and has thirteen artists listed in its Wikipedia article, eight of which are notable artists. Album Your Anchor was released on label Barsuk Records, which was founded in 1994 and has thirty-three artists listed in its Wikipedia article, thirty of which are notable. These labels are important indie labels with a roster of notable artists, and Lackthereof has released three albums with them. — X S G 16:06, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would encourage editors to do at least a brief search before arguing that an article is not notable per lack of sources. It took me all of about four minutes to find this article in The Oregonian this article in The Portland Mercury, this article in Spin, this article in the East Bay Express, this interview in PopMatters, and this article in The Portland Mercury – enough for the general notability guideline, a.k.a. WP:MUSIC criterion #1. Keep Paul Erik ^{(talk)(contribs)} 18:42, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as meeting first criteria of WP:MUSIC and the fact that sources found establish notability. Pie is good ^{(Apple is the best)} 20:06, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Response Please use the information in these references to improve the article, or at least list them on the article's talk page so others can do the same and so we here at AfD can peruse them and judge them for independence and reliability, and possibly change our delete votes. Thanks. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 20:42, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment on notability of record labels: Don't take a count of blue-links as an indication of notability - at least one of the links for Barsuk Records was a redirect to an unrelated article before I made it red, and others may be of marginally notable bands. Also, "notability" for the purposes of "2 notable indie labels" is subjective and in my mind at least is a higher bar than being notable enough for the label to have its won Wikipedia article. The key is that the label have several bands on its roster that are beyond mere marginal notability. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 20:39, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment on the notability of Barsuk Records: Without giving this a hard inspection, this seems notable enough - there's at least one group that's at least a C- or B-list celebrity, and several more which seem to have plenty of third-party references.
Comment on the notability of FILMguerrero: Based only on this article, this indie label does not rise to the level of Barsuk Records and in my subjective opinion, does not appear notable enough to count as a "notable indie label" for the purposes of making Lackthereof notable. It is notable enough to have its own Wikipedia article though. If there is more to FILMguerro than is evident in the article, please improve that article and post a message on my talk page so I can reconsider. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 20:39, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment ~~why I'm still saying delete~~: I see comments above that support notability, but I'm only convinced the criteria is halfway-met. I would be much more impressed if the article was improved - I've been known to vote "keep" in AfDs on articles that don't quite meet notability guidelines but are well-written enough to meet or nearly meet B-class quality. Look at articles by other artists in Barsuk's stable, such as They Might Be Giants or Mates of State for examples. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 20:39, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - I've never seen an AfD that states "Article's subject is notable, but the article is of WP:POOR QUALITY." That's because the subject is either notable or it isn't, and the quality of the article oughtn't enter into it, at least in the AfD process. I don't know anything about Lackthereof, but it was obvious to me when I saw that it was proposed for deletion that the subject was of at least questionable notability on the face of it, and a few seconds of investigation confirmed that they are almost certainly notable to Wikipedia's standards, especially since as a general rule editors are supposed to err on the side of keep. Because it was so easy to verify notability, it just seems like you (and a few others) have some sort of POV against the subject. Ultimately, I'm not interested in impressing you, I'm interested in seeing that you stop wasting other editors time with frivolous proposed deletions by giving them a hard time with respect to your own made-up guidelines. — X S G 21:41, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Okay, that was a little harsher than you deserved, seeing as you weren't the one who put this up for deletion. You were the one to add a message to my talk page, challenging me to prove notability to your own "subjective" standards, however, which is ultimately where my frustration comes from. This is not what Wikipedia is supposed to be like. If I were a novice editor, I would have considered that as tantamount to a WP:BITE. — X S G 21:44, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - Response to XSG just to clarify: Until I read Paul's references, I was convinced that this subject did not meet notability requirements. However, WP:GOODQUALITY is sometimes enough to make me change a delete to a neutral or keep in a borderline case. Now that I've read Paul's links it's become clear that the subject is notable enough to warrant an article. It's not the case here by a longshot, but I have seen articles on barely-wiki-notable subjects deleted in AfD with a recommendation to WP:STARTOVER. This usually happens when the article is of such poor quality that it's deemed unsalvagable, AND there are items in the edit history that warrant deletion, such as copyright violations, BLP violations, or other things that typically trigger speedy deletions. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 21:54, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - Notability of indie labels, or more accurately, importance of them, is not crystal-clear in WP:Notability (music). There is room for subjective judgments. Criteria #5 for musicians and ensembles says the artist Has released two or more albums on a major label or one of the more important indie labels (i.e. an independent label with a history of more than a few years and a roster of performers, many of which are notable). It's up to each editor to determine what "a few years," "roster of performers," and "many of which are notable" mean. As a general statement on indie labels: Given that there are any number of non-notable artists with Wikipedia articles, an indie label with a dozen artists with blue-links on its Wikipedia page doesn't automatically qualify: The bands behind those blue links must be researched to make sure that at least a few are really notable before the label can be considered "one of the more important indie labels." davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 22:03, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Non-speedy keep based on the references found by User:Paul Erik and their contents as applied to the general notability guideline plus near-compliance with the Music notability guideline. Even those editors who say the music guideline supersedes the general guideline for musicians should consider that when the music guideline is almost met but the person meets the general guidelines, the benefit of the doubt is probably in order. The content in some of Erik's references really needs to be added to the article. Part of what AfDs are for is to get articles improved. XSG, Paul Erik and Ilikepie2221: I challenge you to make some improvements to this article by the time this AfD is over and raise this article to B-class or higher by the end of October. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 20:53, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Paul Erik's sources. - Icewedge (talk) 21:26, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.