Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive105
Nableezy
[edit]| Nableezy topic banned on P/I, 6mo. Also specific ban on 'Palestine' wording. -- DQ (t) (e) 08:22, 4 January 2012 (UTC) |
|---|
| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Nableezy[edit]
Nableezy is restricted from adding the word Palestinian' to any articles until 15 January.
Yet, around the same time, Nableezy adds the very same category to ten articles in the span of less than five minutes.[4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13] All of these are anti-Israel organizations and most of them considered terrorist organizations by the West. It is impossible to find the sources and the articles in that span of time. It is clear that Nableezy is not interested in even checking for sources for his edits when it suits his POV. This type of behavior represents tendentious editing in the extreme.
Nableezy is an experienced editor who is well versed with the rules and no stranger to these boards. He knew that he was restricted from adding the word “Palestinian” into articles per the last and rather mild AE sanction (tailor made just for him). He also knows that his page is closely watched by his followers. So he cleverly makes an edit that contravenes the ban and self-reverts with an edit summary self-rv, somebody else revert this tho. That edit summary is akin to a call to arms or the sounding of the trumpets. In fact, someone heeded his call[17] and Nableezy thus accomplished his objective. He performs this game three times. The aim is quite simple; to get his version in without technically violating the restriction. The first time he did it, one can perhaps AGF and credit it to a one-time lapse. The problem is that the edit summary on the self-revert demonstrates that Nableezy is very calculating and knows precisely what he’s doing. The second problem is that he did it three times thus evidencing clear knowledge that he is under a restriction, hence the need for a quick self-revert. Thus, the multiple self-reverts on multiple occasions were merely a means to an end. The edits were purposeful with intent to circumvent the restriction and a rather brazen attempt at that.
Discussion concerning Nableezy[edit]Statement by Nableezy[edit]At the risk of saying what should be left unsaid, I feel compelled to say this. Jiujitsuguy is among the very worst editors I have ever had the displeasure of dealing with. It has been established, several times, that he lies about sources to push a fringe political POV. Edits such as this should be themselves result in bans. Edits such as this should by themselves result in bans. Take a look at his act at here and at Talk:Katzrin where he attempts to place what is provable false material in an encyclopedia article. That alone should result in a ban. JJG has, since literally day 1 of editing here, been a serial violator of nearly every single content and conduct policy, from WP:V and WP:NPOV to WP:MEAT and more. He has been interested in one thing here, using Wikipedia as a propaganda instrument. You let him get away with lying about sources the last time. Exactly what is necessary to rid this most disruptive and bad-faithed "editors" from this supposed "encyclopedia"? nableezy - 22:52, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Nableezy[edit]Comment by Michael Netzer[edit]The restriction that Nableezy accepted on adding 'Palestinian' is not like 1RR and 3RR where a self-revert remedies a violation. No such stipulation of self-revert was made by EdJohnston nor accepted by Nableezy. The self-revert cannot thus be said to remedy the violation. It's enough that he does it 3 times to constitute a violation that shows little respect for the sanction, and even more contempt for it by self-reverting and then calling for other editors to revert again. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 07:31, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
@EdJohnston: Cautioning for great wisdom seems like a pillar of WP guidance whether for an editor or administrator. For lack of confidence in my own, I've not suggested what action needs to be taken in comments since participating here. I'd wish for a day that no editor would want to bring a case to AE, but instead try to work out disagreements on the field. I know that's not easy for everyone and that tempers flare under duress. I've seen the more collaborative side of Nableezy and I believe he'd like to have it be his dominant approach to editing. I also know that's not always easy for him as the near sole representative for his cause, though he does enjoy wide editor support. Your concern for swirling trouble seems to be of paramount importance. Until we learn how to eradicate storms, the best remedies are protective constructs that help everyone endure them. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 01:26, 28 December 2011 (UTC) Comment by Nishidani[edit]If this place were civil, a self-revert would cancel the error. NMMGG told me I had (inadvertently) made 2 reverts. I couldn't understand his point, and took his word for it, and selfbanned myself for a month, from article edits. That is how this should be done mainly, on talk pages, notifying an editor and seeing if he is amenable to reason. As to the diffs, Nableezy is worse than myself in the precise construal of what is said. He was told not to add 'Palestinian'. Some of them consist not of 'adding' the word Palestinian to any text, but restoring it to articles where it had been, vandalistically, subtracted'. Subtraction and addition are diametrically opposed processes. But I think Ed is the person to decide on this. Jiujituguy, this bit about Nableezy dropping hints to 'followers' is pure fantasy. User:Taivo, who followed the point made in Nableezy's edit summary is an awesome wikipedian, a professional linguist who knows exactly how to make the right call on a page dealing with languages, independently bookmarked, and he did as any one competent would do. Seeding tagteaming suspicions where they is no evidence for them is not a proper way to make a formal complaint. Nor is waiting 3 days to bring up old evidence and present Nableezy with a 'Christmas gift'. Gift in German means poison.Nishidani (talk) 16:49, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Comment by The Devil's Advocate[edit]I am torn on this question. On one hand I want to assume good faith that Nableezy self-reverted because of an honest failure to remember the restriction or confusion over it. On the other hand the fact he has done this three days in a row, self-reverted within a minute or less of making the edit, and on two occasions in his self-revert calls for someone else to make the revert (something he should surely know is no different from reverting the change himself) leads me to suspect JJG may be correct about Nableezy's intent. At the same time I can see how Nableezy might see several of these cases as legitimate exceptions to the restriction, especially the edit to Palestinian Arabic that I think probably qualifies as vandalism. Such a muddled case makes me wonder if the restriction has much chance of being enforceable. There is a broader issue, however, in the way JJG and Nableezy are both apparently attempting to use this request to pursue a personal vendetta by raising frivolous concerns (the Irgun cat where Nab reverted a sock) or issues that have already been decided on (the Mount Hermon case that was already ended).--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 05:06, 26 December 2011 (UTC) @Nableezy No, I do not think you are stupid. I think you are more than intelligent enough to understand that asking someone to make an edit you are not allowed to make is a clear-cut violation of the restriction and not an effort at discussing the issue. Obviously you wanted someone to see your comment about the material needing to be reverted and act according to your wishes. Maybe you could argue that it was a slip-up in the heat of the moment, but again you did it more than once in a very short period of time. That doesn't make such a defense very convincing.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 07:34, 26 December 2011 (UTC) Oh for Heaven's sake! JJG took his little squabble down to the AE case from Nableezy directly beneath this one and now they're duking it out there too.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 21:35, 26 December 2011 (UTC) Nableezy, the problem is not with the case you presented against JJG, I think you were right. However, bringing it up here where it has no relevance at all after it has already been concluded and complaining that the admins should "get rid of" JJG is not the way to challenge this request. In fact, by immediately resorting to such tactics you are only making yourself look worse. By the same token trying to say that you were just discussing the issue when you plainly called for other people to perform the action you were prohibited from taking is not helping you look better. The examples you give of you discussing are not working for you either, because in two you are making purely technical comments that would not really involve adding the word Palestinian, but simply changing Palestine to Palestinian. The other discussion is you talking about the problematic editing of a user making one of the changes you briefly reverted after other editors have been reverting the editor. None of them shows you simply telling other people to perform a revert in your stead. I do not think the restriction was imposed with the understanding that you could just ask someone else to make the same edit you are restricted from making, though Ed's clarification would be helpful.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 04:58, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
@Ed It should be noted that he in fact did this three days in a row and on two of those occasions he requested that another editor revert the edit for him, something he apparently believes is completely legitimate.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 23:59, 27 December 2011 (UTC) @WG Seriously, you should take the advice some editors are giving and excuse yourself from these cases with Nableezy. Your reference of the Cptnono case above just goes to show the bizarre hoops you seem to jump through when it comes to Nab. There you did initially agree with AGK about an indef, but the moment someone suggested Nableezy might have technically violated the interaction ban as well you do a complete 180 and insist that not only should there be no action taken against a blatant violation of the interaction ban by Cptnono, contradicting AGK's suggestion, you suggest lifting the interaction ban. Now, you are taking that same insistence on an indef by AGK and citing it here to push for an indef against Nableezy. This after having already pushed for such an indef in a previous case involving Cptnono's interaction ban with Nableezy because you found it frivolous only to back down after several admins told you that would be incredibly harsh, including the other admin you mention to support this latest suggestion of an indef. My advice to you is that you, in the immortal words of Zach Galifianakis, better check yourself before you wreck yourself.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 05:57, 28 December 2011 (UTC) @JJG Your latest diff is stretching it. If anything this indicates that the restriction was unenforceable as a revert like that would easily result in accidentally violating the restriction without a person realizing it, while otherwise being a legitimate revert. For me it is far more conceivable that this instance was just a mistake. As far as Nableezy previously repeating this violation three times in three days, his calls for other editors to perform the prohibited reverts, or the way he has acted on this AE case, I believe the first issue should be treated with a little more leniency given the restriction would probably have been difficult to follow anyway. The other two issues with Nableezy's conduct are still, in my opinion, legitimate cause for imposing sanctions on him. Not sure if that would really change the resulting sanctions, but endorsing the use of this kind of restriction in the future would probably be a bad idea.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 05:47, 1 January 2012 (UTC) Comment by Shuki[edit]I don't see any reason to even contemplate Nableezy's innocent and naive 'slip' of an edit since he just a few days ago, kindly warned me on my talk page, actually threatened to take me to AE, about a problematic edit of mine in which he even brought up his four month topic ban from exactly a year ago where he was caught gaming the system by self-reverting among other things to prove I was in the wrong, which I accepted. So any reasonable contributor to this project would step back and be careful when under the magnifying glass, the same one he uses for others. I would advise Nableezy to take the initiative and precaution and self impose a topic ban but Nableezy (and most of us) seems to understand that he'll just get a free pass once again, a little slap on the wrist, and 'advised' about some behaviour or something. --Shuki (talk) 17:40, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Boris[edit]When I saw this, I did not believe my eyes. Nableezy is a known warrier for the cause, but he is usually impeccable with respect to various rules. And here after the recent restriction, he is under a magnifying glass, and then this. He is restricted from using one word, and he adds precisely this word several times. Puzzling. Now comes an explanation; it is all forgetfulness. OK. But then there are these edit summaries. I just imagine what he would say if one of his usual opponents profesed innocence in this way... I would say like this. Edit summaries by themselves are ok. But edit summaries in the self-revert are problematic, because the self-revert is supposed to be an act of contrition. And then this combative defence. This whole thing has a bad smell. But then, as always, I AGF. I would also say that I don't like that the report is made by JJG. Perhaps JJG and Nableezy should try to step back from this sustained confrontation, especially here on AE. Maybe impose a ban on reporting on AE page? - BorisG (talk) 19:48, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Gatoclass[edit]
WGFinley, as I have said, I think you should be recusing yourself from cases involving Nableezy given your apparent animus toward him, remarked upon by several editors over the last few weeks. In response to your comment about previous sanctions, I have pointed out that all of Nableezy's past sanctions are for minor technical breaches of revert restrictions etc., and none for the real problem in the topic area, which is POV pushing. The same cannot be said of his opponents. The central problem involving Nableezy for a long period now has been an apparently neverending stream of Israeli nationalist editors who are constantly trying to push the POV that certain territories including East Jerusalem, the Golan Heights and the West Bank are "in Israel" (a demonstrable falsehood). That is the problem that ultimately needs to be addressed on this board, not the problem of "Nableezy" whose only offence has been to try and defend core policies with regard to these issues. Gatoclass (talk) 04:52, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
I have struck my original comment supporting a ban for Nableezy due to the fact that I unfortunately missed some evidence. I now see that Nableezy reverted all three of these edits, within a minute of making them. While it certainly seems odd that he would forget about this restriction on three separate occasions, the fact that he immediately self-reverted means that he effectively complied with his restriction. I don't find Juijitsuguy's interpretation of Nableezy's actions persuasive given that N. could have achieved the same result just by leaving a note on the talk page, which would likewise turn up on watchlists. There is little if any justification in my view for a sanction in these circumstances; certainly not a lengthy one. Gatoclass (talk) 01:21, 29 December 2011 (UTC) Comment by Sean.hoyland[edit]I agree with Gatoclass. We're in danger of losing perspective here. This should be about what is best for content. For example, the first diff in this report shows Nableezy finding a factual error that has been in an article since 2009. His restriction happened to mean that he couldn't fix it at that time but his actions resulted in it being fixed. Nableezy highlighting the issue also allowed me to search for similar factual errors in several articles and fix them. They are the kind of errors, deliberate falsehoods, that are routinely introduced by nationalists who are often frustratingly shameless in their disregard for policy. Once Wikipedia starts blocking editors on sight for advocating or introducing deliberate falsehoods like these which are a clear demonstration that an editor isn't capable of editing in the topic area, the topic area will be a far more stable and productive environment. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:48, 28 December 2011 (UTC) Having looked at the second diff, that is Nableezy reverting an IP, Special:Contributions/108.162.98.101, who has been repeatedly warned and blocked for vandalizing an article by removing the word Palestinian. Trying to erase all things Palestinian is a common sport for the extremist element that edit in the topic area. Punishing Nableezy for this edit and a self-revert appears to be counterproductive and bureaucratic. Sean.hoyland - talk 11:29, 28 December 2011 (UTC) Comment by DePiep[edit]@EdJohnston. The introduction of this page says clearly: who comes with unclean hands .... Then while you state this one sentence about requestor Jiujitsuguy: It is disquieting that User:Jiujitsuguy is the one submitting this complaint, [...], you did not see a reason to derive results from that statement. Yet then your reasoning continues about Nableezy, including: so much trouble swirls around Nableezy. From there, you end up supporting ... indefinite topic ban. You did not contemplate that the swirl was put there by others? Jiujitsuguy for starters, and why not take a look at User:MichaelNetzer (who is present here, as the first Commenter in this section: Well, in another recent AE his hands were not checked on cleanness for administrative reasons -- but you have every right to do that check from here), and this, needing protection against apparent target of coordinated IP/sock attack. I myself saw the effect of my edit, after which the indirect accusations (or trolling) by another editor stopped without further ado. With all this, I am not convinced that the "level of rhetoric" (?) and "evident battleground attitude" of Nableezy (which to me did not stand out as such) is dissenting with the other comments in the thread they are in. I think it is misleading that the same "battleground" is visited by multiple others, thereby keeping low both their "trouble swirls" statistics and your attention.
Comment by 172.190.235.61[edit](Moved from top to this place to keep structure. Corrected sectiontitle. -DePiep (talk) 09:35, 29 December 2011 (UTC)) Clearly this statement is in itself an example of the "central problem" with respect to Nableezy. Editors like Nableezy and the person who said this believe that Palestinian nationalism, not "Israeli nationalism" is the correct political position that reflects Wikipedia's 'core principles'. Clearly if one is able to rid Wikipedia of those pesky Israeli nationalists, then the "true" Palestinian nationalist position will be able to be fully expressed. This is the position that Nableezy and his supporters take, and they are more than willing to fight after fight to rid Wikipedia of the opposite POV, constantly pushing the envelope of acceptability with these kinds of games, rather than actually collaborate with editors who do not share their view. This is precisely what the Arabs and Palestinians do in real life, refusing to acknowledge the Jewish nature of the Israeli state, colluding with other Arab nations and the Western-named terrorist groups for the eradication of the state of Israel. Wikipedia is a microcosm of this, except that at Wikipedia, the "Palestinian state" viewpoint is dominant and the Israeli viewpoint (generally called 'Zionist' here at Wiki) struggles mightily to be heard as can be seen in the quote above. Nableezy and a few others dictate policy. I salute the Israel supporters on Wiki, who constantly take a beating at the hands of Nableezy and others of "his ilk." This is permitted by the basically democratic (read: mob-rule) nature of Wikipedia, and supported by those editors and administrators who believe their pro-Palestinian "anti-Zionist" position is the correct, unbiased one. If history (at Wiki) is any answer, we can expect more excuses for Nableezy and the Palestinian nationalists and more hard knocks for the Israeli "nationalists" here at Wikipedia. The facts, the atmosphere, and Wikipedia's reputation are what really suffers. 172.190.235.61 (talk) 17:38, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Zero0000[edit]It seems to be that WGFinley simply cannot think straight when it comes to Nableezy. Every casual visitor to these pages will see it very clearly. This is bad for everyone. WGFinley should recuse himself. Zerotalk 02:29, 29 December 2011 (UTC) Comment by ElComandanteChe[edit]I took the liberty to ask for closure on this case at WP:ANRFC. --ElComandanteChe (talk) 21:48, 3 January 2012 (UTC) Result concerning Nableezy[edit]
@Gato - I haven't had any animus against Nableezy, he has fabricated the perception of bias with his constant torrent of criticism he hurls my way. Recusing myself in cases concerning him would just create an example of how to get rid of admins you don't want to deal with. I've taken no individual action against him and kept my comments to his action and the case that's at hand, he hasn't done likewise at any juncture. I have a thick skin, I can deal with the insults, but I have not been biased in my treatment or assessment of his actions. In fact in this case I deferred to Ed and he asked me what I thought. --WGFinley (talk) 06:04, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
I have reopened the MichaelNetzer case, hopefully that will let us stick to this case. Nableezy's prior TBAN was 4 months, the offense is minor but the AE conduct and gross incivility is not. I think the TBAN should be indefinite, 6 at a minimum. With that, unless a fellow uninvolved admin has anything else to ask me, this is my final comment on this case. --WGFinley (talk) 01:03, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
|
MichaelNetzer
[edit]| 1RR, Topic ban, and Probation in relation to either P/I or Jerusalem. -- DQ (t) (e) 04:44, 5 January 2012 (UTC) |
|---|
| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning MichaelNetzer[edit]
The user has been a regular participant here so is obviously aware of the ARBPIA case
MichaelNetzer, after long discussions at Talk:Jerusalem and WP:DRN, threatened to revert against consensus. MichaelNetzer is alone arguing that a folk etymology be retained as though it were factual. He has threatened to revert against consensus, and has made good on his threat, having reverted the same material 3 times, which has been added by 5 different users at this point.. He has also refused to self-revert, claiming that his argument is superior and despite the overwhelming rejection of that argument his consent is required to remove the material from the lead. No one editor should be allowed to hold an article hostage, and when that editor threatens to do so, and then makes good on his threat, he should be restricted from continuing to do so.
He wrote I have never claimed my argument was "superior" nor would I presume to be a judge of myself. He wrote, in reply to my saying that his belief that consensus has not been achieved based on his feeling that his argument is stronger is not acceptable, that I have a stronger argument and you are wrong. Here he shows the same willingness to distort the record that led him to revert the same material over and over again. This is both tendentious and disruptive. It needs to stop, either by his agreement or through some administrative sanction. nableezy - 20:29, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Also, as far as 6 months being harsh as a first topic ban, that may be true. However my very first topic ban, a result of edit-warring in the lead of the article Gaza War (against a sock of a banned user, who also initiated the report) resulted in a 6 month topic ban, later reduced to 4 month article ban and 2 month topic-wide ban. See here. That was, besides 2 short blocks on unrelated articles, my first ban of any sort. And it has been used, repeatedly, to argue for excessively lengthy bans for any misbehavior on my side. nableezy - 16:12, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
Discussion concerning MichaelNetzer[edit]Statement by MichaelNetzer[edit]Long before I came to this area, the first sentence in Jerusalem included the meanings "Abode of Peace" and "The Holy Sanctuary" for the names in Hebrew and Arabic respectively. The Etymology section covers the pre-Hebrew meaning "Foundation of (the god) Shalem", with an uncontested scholarly source that was also there before I came. The same source also states immediately afterward "The popular meaning of Jerusalem, "the city of peace" comes from the Hebrew word "shalom", meaning peace, harmony and wholeness." I did not fabricate this source, nor insert it into the article. "Abode of Peace" is supported by 5 (five) reliable scholarly sources in the article. The etymology is factual. How can some editors claim it is not supported by sources when it appears in the article with Five scholarly reliable sources? What else is needed to prove this meaning is factual? These additional supportive sources that are not in the article show 'Abode of Peace' is the most popular and recognized meaning of the name Jerusalem. They are only supportive sources, but in that WP:Wikipedia is not a dictionary and the lede is intended for "a good definition and description" of the topic, 'Adobe of Peace' is factually and extensively supported by sources for inclusion. On that basis I asked to explain why it should be removed and no answer other than "folk etymology" was given. Yet WP policy clearly states: "An encyclopedic definition is more concerned with encyclopedic knowledge (facts) rather than linguistic concerns." I asked for an answer to this and none was given. This pillar policy for the lede was disregarded as if it doesn't exist. Some editors are trying to remove, by force, a long standing community consensus definition in one of the most sensitive articles in the I-P space. I did not threaten to revert against consensus". Anyone reading what I said there can see that. I have never threatened to revert against consensus. I have never claimed my argument was "superior" nor would I presume to be a judge of myself. I pointed to WP:Consensus: "Consensus is determined by the quality of the arguments given on the various sides of an issue, as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy." That's all I said about quality of an argument. I have adhered to Wikipedia guidelines diligently throughout the discussions. I only reverted the article to the state it was in before the dispute, until consensus is achieved. The "overwhelming rejection" of my argument has been exaggerated beyond compare. In this diff, it was said to be "a dozen voices". Some time later in this diff, it became "14-15 people". My latest count shows 7 against 4. Where are the 14-15? Why was this said? I adhere to the following guideline on achieving consensus:
I have not seen the slightest attempt to have the most minimal concerns about this addressed. These are the discussions: Talk:Jerusalem * DR Noticeboard * Talk:Nish * Talk:WGFinley. They need to be read fully to understand this case. Nothing said here by anyone, including myself, can be taken at face value. To me, they show the process to remove the Hebrew meaning is ill conceived and violates WP policy on the most fundamental levels. No consensus has been achieved to warrant it. I'm willing to be convinced but not this way. Not in this tone. Not with this incivility. Not with this disregard for everything Wikipedia stands for. I will not respond to the venom spilled here, it speaks for itself. I only ask the case be reviewed thoroughly. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 20:14, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Jerusalem is a a city rich with history and conflict, unique and cherished by prominent cultures for their lot in it. Even scholars who decry the violence over it, and have no favor for Israel, recognize its meaning 'Abode of Peace'. Removing the Hebrew meaning and leaving the Arabic, defies all encyclopedic integrity. Removing both meanings from the lede gravely compromises the article's introduction in that both the Hebrew and Arabic meanings, as they appeared by long-standing community consensus, define what the city is most commonly recognized for. They are both "holy writ" and one cannot make an argument that only one such "holy writ" should be prejudiced. There was never a properly achieved consensus for removal of this information. Arguments were ignored by editors on one side who seemed more than happy to win a fight instead of showing concern for neutrality. I acted only to defend the integrity of Wikipedia information against this POV push. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 06:09, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
TDA: You are misinformed and appear to repeat others' arguments without checking facts. I am not insisting on any changes. I am only insisting on maintaining long-standing community consensus until a proper agreement is arrived at for changes that others want to make. I declined "compromises" that removed well sourced information on questionable grounds and were not compromises at all. I proposed this compromise based on Nishidani's and Jayen's concerns, which was rejected by Nishidani. I have repeatedly stated that I would support a reasonable compromise. Your comment did imply your agreement that 'Abode of Peace" is one of the primary meanings of Jerusalem. You now reverse your position. Please study the facts before making such allegations. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 07:19, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
To close my comments: The way this dispute started reveals the battleground tone and incivility from the first words Nishidani addressed me with. Many of his first comments are laden with personal remarks about my understanding and abilities rather than simply arguing content. This set the tone for everything to follow and nothing I said would matter anymore. I asked Nishidani repeatedly to stop making such remarks, to no avail. Here are only a few of them:
For all of Nishidani's self-professed superiority in linguistics, it turned out that much of his argument was based on his lack of previous knowledge of the term, which has been around for 2 millennia and prevalent everywhere in sources. To assault my knowledge on that basis reveals a serious behavioral issue. All my sources were dismissed categorically in the beginning, without sound reason for their context, yet the primary ones are in the article itself and have never been contested there. Something started out very wrong here. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 08:31, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
Johnuniq: You disregard everything else in this dispute and base your appraisal of me on a few select comments. Read how this started and how it continued and you might understand my statement to Nishidani better. I don't think you will, seeing how you're going to extreme lengths to support his uncivil behavior from the start. It is not that "some people" like that meaning, as your weasel definition states. Scholarly sources support it as the common meaning. There's a world of difference between your one-sided approach to "mediation" and "dismissal" of sources - and between the whole body of facts. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 10:52, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
On re-opening the case and T.Canens' comment: WGFinley did the right thing by re-opening the case. He's been right and fair in his arbitration. The record shows I entered into the discussion in good faith and conducted myself with civility and patience in the face of enormous hostility, which persists to this moment. If my conduct is to be considered below expected standards, what should be said about the behavior towards me? I do not apologize for defending the integrity of due process on Wikipedia, nor for the patience and goodwill I tried to convey to editors who disregarded the most basic tenets of good collaboration, and presume to rule the encyclopedia in their contempt for editors who disagree with them. I regret the disruption but did not cause it. The battleground agitation in the I-P space began long before I came here, and will continue long after. My reverts were proper and in good faith because the edit-war was instigated by trying to remove well-sourced sensitive information in a sensitive article, without achieving agreement. Due process was not upheld and a long-held community consensus was violated without considering the most minimal concerns raised. I was attacked vehemently from the very beginning for daring to suggest there should be consideration for why the information has been in the article, long before I arrived. Though I do not apologize for what I've done, I've learned the futility of trying to uphold the values and guidelines Wikipedia stands for, in such a situation. Administrators will do what they deem proper. It will be the right thing by each administrator's view, and it will be acceptable. My presence in the topic area is not critical to the encyclopedia. The future of Wikipedia, should things continue this way, is. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 03:54, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning MichaelNetzer[edit]Comment by Peter Cohen[edit]I am aware of at least two other people who were talking about filing an AE on this subject. No doubt they will reveal themselves here. Of far more interest to me than the three reverts which Nableezy has identified is the tendency of MN to argue ad nauseam and the tendentiousness of what he says while he is arguing. Both are exampled at Talk:Jerusalem#Abode_of_Peace which just goes on and on and on with one person arguing against several. Nishidani has produced in that thread an extensive number of references from reliable etymological sources yet MN insists on giving undue weight to an ill-founded folk-etymology by having it in the first sentence. Then when I make my one edit on the subject which has a perfectly clear explanation, he tries to engage me in an equally tendentious argument on my talk page, accusing me of edit-warring and asks me to self-revert, as if he wasn't edit-warring. After all, he could not revert me himself because he had already used his 1RR for the day in that very edit war. I decided to archive that thread. After all I have seen him at work in various tl;dr threads at Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(West_Bank)#Dispute_on_exceptions_6C_and_D and Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Israel_Palestine_Collaboration/Current_Article_Issues#Alon_Shvut where he is equally long-winded and equally tendentious in Wiki-lawyering about the meaning of some perfectly clearly written text in a guideline which was created at Arbcom's instigation to try and stop this sort of nonsense. Dear admins, please remember that tendentious editing is one of the grounds under which sanctions can be applied and put us all out of our misery.--Peter cohen (talk) 01:03, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Comment by The Devil's Advocate[edit]Seems to be a pretty clear-cut case of edit-warring. In one case just over 31 hours elapse between reverts by Netzer with the last instance seeing just 55 hours elapse before Netzer reverted again. Maybe not close enough to still be considered a violation of 1RR, but still clearly repeatedly reverting to the exact same version each time in a very short period. A broader issue concerning this case is that I have seen a similar dispute arise over the 1948 Arab-Israeli War article. That case was the reverse where an editor insisted on the lede "unfairly" excluding an Arab name for the topic in the lede, similar to how this case focuses on "unfairly" excluding the Hebrew meaning of the topic's name in the lede.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 05:27, 26 December 2011 (UTC) @Zero You are correct that I do not support his position. It seems like many other editors I am just another person who tried to point out what the facts on the matter are, that they did not support the specific change Netzer wanted, suggested a middle ground to resolve the dispute, only to have Netzer insist on the exact same change he has been insisting on for some time. He seems to be quite insistent on rejecting all compromises or perhaps just thinks compromise means everyone taking his position. Maybe there is a legitimate concern as it relates to inclusion of different translations when it is relevant to a dispute over territory, but edit-warring and stonewalling are not the way to go about resolving it.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 05:33, 27 December 2011 (UTC) @Michael No, I never "implied" that I supported your specific contention that "Abode of Peace" is the most common meaning. I suggested that "city of peace" may be a possible translation, though not considered the most likely. My comment even specifically said that there was nothing in the source directly backing your desired wording. You interpreting that as support of your specific position and presenting it as supporting your position without even asking me if I did support your position is insulting.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 17:47, 27 December 2011 (UTC) @WG If you look through Netzer's edit history prior to his contributions in the I/P topic area, you may notice that pretty much all of his edits were in articles where he had a clear conflict of interest whether it was his own Wikipedia article, some fringe theory for which he is an enthusiast, various people who he apparently is familiar with on a personal level, or a comic book character he created. Now, I think someone is perfectly capable of objectively writing an article about something they have a personal investment in (it seems on his own article there have been some successful efforts with him towards reaching a NPOV), but I also think editing regularly in such areas with little to no activity elsewhere without anyone pursuing action against you should not be counted in someone's favor.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 18:07, 30 December 2011 (UTC) JJG, Netzer's edit history outside of I/P has been "clean" as far as blocks and sanctions go, but his editing habits over those years he has been contributing would have likely gotten him subjected to administrative action had he not been editing in such an underserved topic area. That said I support a close along the lines proposed by WG, though I think the proposed Jerusalem ban needs clarification on whether it would be a broadly construed topic ban pertaining to that article, i.e. whether discussion of Jerusalem would be allowed.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 23:00, 4 January 2012 (UTC) Comment by Zero0000[edit]MichaelNetzer is one of the most disruptive editors to come to the I-P area in recent months. He came with a profound ignorance of the subject combined with a pathological inability to admit that anyone else might be right. His style is to endlessly weave and duck, repeating his opinions over and over (and over and over), falsely claiming support from other editors for his views when in fact he hardly gets any support. He has hardly a clue about what a reliable source is. All the time he is accusing everyone of malicious motives while being mortally offended if anyone dare suggest he is not an angel from heaven. This business of the lede of Jerusalem could have been solved in 30 minutes to the satisfaction of all parties if MichaelNetzer wasn't around, but thanks to him it has turned into a monumental waste of time with no end in sight. This isn't the first time his contribution has been of this nature; he should have been topic-banned for his earlier strenuous attempt to break Wikipedia:Naming conventions (West Bank) by repeatedly violating it while posting reams of sophistry about it. (Sorry for not adding diffs, it is 2am in my part of the world so that will have to wait until tomorrow). Zerotalk 14:20, 26 December 2011 (UTC) Regarding the lack of an ARBIA warning, the purpose of such a warning is to make sure that the receiver is aware of the arbitration ruling and the consequences of breaking it. Since MichaelNetzer has repeatedly commented on other cases on this very page, it is completely impossible that he was unaware of what was going on. It has been recognized for many years on all dispute resolution pages that sufficiently experienced editors don't need to be warned. Zerotalk 01:38, 27 December 2011 (UTC) As usual, MichaelNetzer's comments here are deceptive and cannot be understood by anyone who hasn't watched the whole saga. Key points:
Zerotalk 02:44, 27 December 2011 (UTC) Comment by Nishidani[edit]The problem is a larger one than a simple IR editwarring infraction- It's behavioural. Background (Content issue, which is not in discussion here, but the behaviour associated with it by one editor) Open any Hebrew dictionary and under יְרוּשָׁלַיִם Yerushaláyim you get the meaning, ‘Jerusalem’, not anything else (‘abode of peace’ etc,.) (Karl Feyerabend, A complete Hebrew-English pocket-dictionary to the Old Testament, Langenscheidt nd. p.135 col.1)
He repeated this (also dubious as WP:Recentism) a week later, he dismissed Christian folk meanings on similar political ground:
He was reminded that these two remarks violate a pillar of wikipedia (WP:NPOV)
He hasn’t the faintest notion of what RS means. He thinks a book’s inclusion in a major library’s holdings, thereby qualifies it as RS; he thinks that the time stamp for a book’s inclusion into a library’s stacks indicates it was both published by the library and RS by virtue of its place of residence. He argues repeatedly that a Pakistani high school teacher’s Islamic-oriented book can trump modern linguistics because it repeats a meme that happens to be erroneous; he thinks a quaint, outdated, self-published book (68 copies) by an LA mystagogue picked up by an occult books specialist when the copyright expired is RS for semitic philology. When each source is examined and picked apart comprehensively, he goes on undaunted and keeps plastering it, with minimal changes lower down on the page and elsewhere on admin pages with minor alterations as in accordance with WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. He cites it but no one can understand why he appears not to have read it, since he argues that a lone hold-out impedes the unanimity required, unanimity meaning everyone changes sides and accepts his unique position. He constantly misconstrues simple sentences, and makes insidious inferences from his flawed interpretation of them. Thus he wrote an extraordinarily bitter tirade challenging my bona fides. Indeed, he said my putative prejudices were a threat to what he thought was the core of Judaism itself, if that is what he means by the extraordinary suggestion my presence and prejudices on this area of wikipedia threaten to erase most knowledge of a civilization entrenched in collective nationalism. At the outset he hinted he reads me as, well, anti-semitic, which is what his remark Nishidani, I find your tone unpleasant and combative, as is your visible contempt for Hebrew associations in many discussions,’ implies. It didn’t help with his rabbit-out-of-the-hat misprision about my putative ‘disdain for "holy writ".’ Users Johnuniq and NSH001 either gently asked him to reflect on his complete misinterpretation of my remarks, or apologize. Nothing doing. I don't mind insults. But Michael's use of them shows he has a problem. Michael interprets editorial disagreements as a form of personal attack I have suffered repeated insults and character assaults by you since we began interacting . . Maybe you know in your heart that I'm right about this, but I can't otherwise understand your unwarranted frustration at me. He went to the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard here. A lengthy recycling of the same poorly substantiated arguments there involved several more, independent observers and their responses. The result was Michael refused the several compromises, similar to Oncenawhile’s offered by respectively Jayen, FCSundae and FormerIP. He then went to User:Wgfinley’s page and tried to restart the argument there, to my page, and to Peter cohen’s page.
He stacks his vote score by listing people who effectively voted against him. When informed of the errors, he refuses, except for one instance where he noted my protest that one vote for the consensual majority position was improper, to change his own tally. He added User:Jayen466 to his support list on the basis of Jayen’s first comment here. After discussion, Jayen modified his initial view towards a compromise here, where he writes “So you could say 'Foundation of Shalem'(?), often interpreted as 'abode of peace'", or something of that ilk.” and then approved of my suggestions for compromise, saying in his edit summary ‘sounds good’ here He also added User:AgadaUrbanit, who removed his name from it, declaring himself neutral. The support of two others is doubtful. The list really should have only Michael and perhaps one other on it, against 7 supporters for an edit which will remove the anomaly and error in the lead. I.e. the solution 30 minutes of commonsense could have agreed to. This fiction of a disputed consensus was what enabled him to edit war in the three reverts Nableezy outlined above.
Thisthis and this all show Michael thoroughly familiar with the ARBPIA issues, since he has minutely examined and challenged them, and participated on many pages where these protocols were discussed. Nishidani (talk) 20:55, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
I believed that at the time and hoped MN would mollify his intransigence on reading this. He didn't. Perhaps Michael persisted after that date (21 Dec) in forum shopping and further reverting because he assumed from what I wrote that whatever happened if he crossed the red line, his record would save him from a serious ban. That is just one of several possibilities, though. The fact is that he kept up his exasperating behaviour, and was supported in this by AgadaUrbanit, who did not act as a neutral party trying to mediate. I won’t go into details, but AU’s version of events is all summed up in his aside (‘However something went wrong’) between the 9th of December and the 21st of December. When I read that I mentally posted an Oscar to AU, who is wellknown for his antic sense of wry but highly purposive playfulness. He has never been 'neutral' and did not step in to mediate. To the contrary, he himself acted against consensus (his edit summary is a joy to read), and only very lately in the piece stepped forward when Michael's persistence became startingly dangerous to MN's reputation here. Michael reverted three times. The third time I restored the consensus version. AgadaUrbanit reverted me, i.e. supported Michael’s defiance of the consensus immediately 08:38, 25 December 2011, intervening for the first time on that date, 3 weeks after extensive discussion on 4 distinct pages. Within 7 minutes, Michael gave me a formal warning for edit warring and disruptive behaviour and, an hour later, added Agada’s name to the (otherwise mostly fictitious) list of people supporting him. Much happened (something went wrong?) but a full day later, Agada suddenly decided to remove his name from Michael’s list and classify himself as neutral. In that same edit, while supporting Michael’s view, he accepted finally a compromise others had been suggesting to Michael for over two weeks. I have hesitated to say anything here. I therefore must correct the impression people are liable o have that this is vindictive. I don’t believe in longterm bans. I think people ought simply to be told, when they show egregious POV behaviour like this, to write an article that treats of an issue dear to the hearts of the ‘other side’. If Michael undertook to write an article on ‘Fatalities among navvies/labourers on Israeli construction sites’ to NPOV, then as far as I’m concerned, no sanction at all would be necessary. Once it was completed, and reviewed as satisfactory, comprehensive and neutral, he could come back. That is the kind of sanction I would apply to everyone from ‘every side’ who has failed to respect NPOV, and who brings to the encyclopedia an undue interest in only one ‘angle of incidence’. Comment by Jiujitsuguy[edit]I have reviewed User:MichaelNetzer's talk page as well as the ARBPIA logs[18] and it appears that he was never issued an ARBPIA warning (unless I missed something). If this is indeed the case, protocol would mandate the issuance of such a warning to the account before a sanction (if any is warranted) could be imposed.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 19:44, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
6) All Arab-Israeli conflict-related articles, broadly interpreted, are placed under discretionary sanctions. Any uninvolved administrator may levy restrictions as an arbitration enforcement action on users editing in this topic area, after an initial warning. (Emphasis added by me) Passed 14 to 0 by motion, 14:32, 27 October 2011 (UTC)--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 19:49, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Johnuniq[edit]I encountered Nishidani at an unrelated article (SAQ), and occasionally scan his talk page, but have not been involved with any P-I issues. I was amazed to see a claim on his talk page that Nishidani had made a statement that "is enough to block users from editing areas relating to their prejudice" (i.e. Nishidani should not edit P-I topics due to a prejudice) (01:42, 20 December 2011 by MichaelNetzer). I have no idea what perspective Nishidani has on P-I matters, so while I was skeptical of the claim that he had a blatant prejudice I am sufficiently open minded to consider that he might have a problem, so I investigated the background to MichaelNetzer's comment. I then responded and engaged in a discussion that leads me to believe that MichaelNetzer should not be editing any controversial topics, and that he has violated ARBPIA#4 (AGF, NPOV, CIVIL, NPA). My reasons for these conclusions are that MichaelNetzer has grossly misinterpreted some comments made by Nishidani, and maintained those gross misinterpretations with no hint of compromise even after the errors were explained. Following the diffs is too confusing, so I will merely outline the issues which can be seen in the wall of text at User talk:Nishidani#Notes (permalink): Nishidani made a comment at DRN that included: "I'm a pagan, so I have no horse in the race. I dislike or rather have deep suspicions about feelings of nationalism, esp. collective, that rise above the love of a landscape, food, and language. These are the prejudices I bring to edits." (diff). MichaelNetzer responded (link above) with a claim that this statement shows Nishidani has a prejudice [and should not edit P-I topics]. I responded that "Nishidani of course is saying he has no prejudices other than that NPOV should be observed". MichaelNetzer's reply switched to '"I'm a pagan, so I have no horse in the race" means the editor has a "pagan horse" in the race'. That interpretation is simply absurd so I realized that it would not be fruitful to further explain the meaning of Nishidani's clear statement, so I switched to the more substantive issue of how to interact with an editor (Nishidani) who disputes an edit (Jerusalem means "abode of peace")—my attempts failed. While the gross misinterpretations made by MichaelNetzer at Nishidani's talk could be overlooked as just another event at Wikipedia, they demonstrate that it is not possible to rely on MichaelNetzer's judgment about what a source says—when a couple of obvious errors are visible, it is likely there are many more. Regarding the content issue of whether the word "Jerusalem" means "Abode of Peace": I gather that no one disputes that there are many sources containing that claim—the point is, that scholarly sources show the claim is not correct, it is only that some people like to refer to the city as "Abode of Peace". Johnuniq (talk) 10:06, 27 December 2011 (UTC) Comment by FormerIP[edit]I have no opinion about whether sanctions should be applied here or what they should be. I would say that I find Michael's position regarding the content issue to be fairly absurd, and he is also a little too trigger-happy with personal attacks. What matters is that the article is improved by excising the folk etymology from the first sentence. No other editor appears to support its retention. As an aside, perhaps Wikipedia could benefit from a specific guideline regarding folk etymologies. As an aside to the aside, this is a good example of where "verifiability not truth" does not make sense. Folk etymologies are usually very easy to verify. Genuine etymologies are harder, but they have the merit of being closer to "truth". --FormerIP (talk) 02:06, 28 December 2011 (UTC) Comment by DePiep[edit]So an admin reopens this, quite probably through my edit. But I am not allowed to post a single word here without a diff. -DePiep (talk) 22:46, 29 December 2011 (UTC) Comment by Boris[edit]So a six-month topic ban is proposed. In other cases, on this page, indefs are proposed for long-term editors (and for much smaller violations). We hear a lot from admins that term bans are ineffective and indefs are the way to go. Can we have some clarity of the overall approach please? - BorisG (talk) 23:35, 29 December 2011 (UTC) Comment by AgadaUrbanit[edit] Hope my comment here is appropriate. I've been involved lately in discussions on Jerusalem, trying to separate fighting parties. I am not sure that Michael reverted a "consensus" version as submitter claims. It is really important in the topic area of Jerusalem to preserve balance between religious and ethnic groups involved in the subject.
Previously, Michael demonstrated a great flexibility in handling a long standing issue of Jerusalem location map, see talk. Submitter of this request claimed "consensus" prematurely, see diff. With that Michael managed to achieve an agreement with submitter of this request on question of map, so I am not sure why the submitter still pushing this enforcement request. Maybe it is related to this submitter's comment on Michael during previous AE request. I think we're lucky to have Michael as a contributor. With that Michael should realize that wall of texts on article's talk page is not a purpose of Wikipedia. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 10:27, 30 December 2011 (UTC) Comment by ElComandanteChe 2[edit]I took the liberty to ask for closure on this case at WP:ANRFC. --ElComandanteChe (talk) 21:50, 3 January 2012 (UTC) Comment by Malik Shabazz[edit]It seems to me that Cailil and T. Canens agreed to a six-month Jerusalem topic ban and a six-month Israel–Palestine probation. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 22:03, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Result concerning MichaelNetzer[edit]
WP:ARBPIA requires the user receive a warning, the report template includes a space for the warning diff as well. Per the decision (emphasis mine):
MichaelNetzer wasn't previously warned, warning and closing the case. --WGFinley (talk) 02:01, 28 December 2011 (UTC) Given questions I am reopening this AE report to discuss more, I won't be doing it. To me the process of sanctions concerning AE is very important, if we sanction users who haven't been warned without giving them an opportunity to remediate their behavior we are setting a very dangerous precedent. I am not and have not justified any conduct by Michael as my warning shows but I still feel he is entitled his chance to listen to the warning and remediate his behavior. This case should be closed but it won't be me who will do it. --WGFinley (talk) 00:47, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Move For Close[edit]To try to summarize here and see if we can get this one warped up. Tim and Ed suggested longer TBANs, I thought that was harsh given the record and Cailil has suggested a middle ground. Can we get agreement on:
--WGFinley (talk) 14:15, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
|
Tuscumbia
[edit]| Most of evidence submitted is stale, WP:SOCK allegations need to be submitted to WP:SPI, single purpose accounts are admonished that tendentious editing in this topic space can lead to topic bans. --WGFinley (talk) 00:21, 5 January 2012 (UTC) |
|---|
| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Tuscumbia[edit]
AA2, ethno-nationalistic battleground conduct
The editing record of User:Tuscumbia shows that he has been topic banned several times. His most recent six-month topic ban expired in mid-summer 2011. Since then User:Tuscumbia returned to an editing behavior that is highly unwelcome and needlessly combative. Since the end of the ban User:Tuscumbia demonstrates continued disregard of those Wikipedia rules for which he was banned. A special concern is Tuscumbia's battleground attitude regarding sources. Tuscumbia has been warned and topic banned by User:Sandstein [42] for specifically choosing to exclude sources based on his or her ethnicity, as evidenced by [43]. He still continues to use racism in his arguments regarding sources: [44], [45]. Tuscumbia recent speak [46], line 73: "Neutral sources"? Are you kidding? Bournoutian, Cheterian, Gilanentz? Come on... These are Armenian authors who are likely to indicate the Armenian names in their writings rather than the correct names." As a note: George Bournoutian is a world-renowned peer-reviewed Western USA-based academic with impeccable reputation. Gilanentz is a medieval (!) author. Cheterian is French. In addtion to these 3 authors whom Tuscumbia is demonizing as "Armenians" User:George Spurlin also mentioned the following sources: John F. R. Wright, Nicholas Holding, and Karl Derouen [47]. Tuscumbia pretended he did not notice these other NPOV sources and focused on his supposedly "Armenian" targets. As pointed out by User:Sandstein when enforcing a topic ban on Tuscumbia [48]: entering into conflicts about either editors or sources on the basis of any ethnic, national or other background, rather than on the basis of their individual reliability or the strength of their arguments, is entirely at odds with WP:NPOV and WP:NOT#BATTLE, as well as strongly morally objectionable. User:Tuscumbia is continuously found in various revert wars. The most recent example is the Murovdag page. This and other examples are shown above. Winterbliss (talk) 02:10, 28 December 2011 (UTC) Response to comments by administrators and others[edit]
Discussion concerning Tuscumbia[edit]Statement by Tuscumbia[edit]Actually, there is no statement to be made as I expected one of the new suspicious accounts to report me on one of the boards. That's the main intent why these accounts are generated. This account Winterbliss by itself is a part of the suspicious group of new users who don't act like new unexperienced editors and seem to know their ways around the most controversial articles. The simultaneous appearance of the accounts Dehr, InTheRevolution, Winterbliss, Sprutt, Zimmarod, Hablabar, George Spurlin, shortly after blocking of the following sockpuppet accounts: Bars77, Gorzaim, Vandorenfm, Szeget, 2492BC, Repin3, Oxi42 is not coincidental. Their contribution histories suggest that they are generated to make just a few or several minor edits like typo fixing, removal of names, adding commas, etc to build a contribution history and seem genuine; and in between reverting controversial articles pertaining to the subject of AA2. The main purpose is to assist the established users on their side to avoid santions or being reported, and more importantly, drag the established users from the other side into reports such as this one with an intent to get them sanctioned. Note that they are there to sacrifice themselves to sanctions and pull the established users along with them, thus clearing the path for their established peers. This is a long term practice by these users and many have gone into indefinite blocks (Please see rich archives of similar sock accounts for Hetoum I, Meowy, Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Xebulon/Archive, Andranikpasha, Paligun, Capasitor, Aram-van and many more which can be found in SPI archives. However, neither administrator enforcement is able to stop these sock masters from generating newer sock accounts as range blocks of IPs are often discouraged. At times, new accounts like that of Winterbliss may also act as meatpuppets using people at different locations or proxy IPs. It's a well established fact that the user Meowy, Ararat arev, for example, edited from various locations. It is also likely that you will often witness them try to fool administrators by lame compliments to themselves such as this one where Aram-van compliments himself by using this sock account 2492BC and then responds to himself as Aram-van. Little do they know that they are to be disclosed soon as yet another sockpuppet.
The bottom line is that reverting is not a crime, as long as it's a blind reverting without commenting and engaging in conversations. Many of the socks are usually used for that. I have not violated a WP:3RR, neither did I make unsubstantiated edits. The user George Spurlin whose only edits are an engagement in edit/revert wars (other minor tweaks are for display) was even requested not to use the edit-protected article request, he had made as a vehicle for for edit warring. Note that the reporting party lied in section 6 of Diff of notifications above claiming the admin is warning me. The admin is in fact warning the George Spurlin account who had filed the edit protected request. Tuscumbia (talk) 14:21, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
Devil's Advocate, thank you for your investigation of Winterbliss. I must remind you that there is yet another account Winter Gaze which was generated on November 21, two days after Winterbliss was originated with similar "simplistic user page. I mention this account because it fell into the category of casual editors who edited articles pertaining to AA2, with Winter Gaze being a more frequent minor edits contributor, who all of a sudden stopped on December 3. Like I had mentioned in one of SPIs, these new casual yet seemingly very experienced accounts get generated around the same time for a planned campaign. A most likely scenario is to storm the same topic area articles supporting "each other" and then drag established users countering their POV to arbitration, such as this one. If one of them gets blocked, no problem, they have the similar new accounts which were started around the same time and built some "contribution history", to continue. For instance, if Winterbliss is found a sock, it is likely that Winter Gaze will revitalize and continue the same type of edits Winterbliss had engaged in. The fact that Winterbliss mentions he was some account in Russian Wikipedia does not mean that he's not Xebulon, Meowy, Andranikpasha or Hetoum I. I find it very hard to believe that a user with such a proficiency in English Wikipedia would edit in Russian Wiki and not in English one. In fact, if he mentions that he moved to US (with a nice haha laugh, by the way which he later deleted), then everything adds up and suspicions will grow since it might as well be some blocked user who relocated and continues his edit-warring from a new location with a new account. As far as his quick contributions on Crocodile Fat and Biodiesel, please take a look at this interesting fact. The account RobertMel who was found to be the same as blocked user Magotteers, who was one of dozens of Meowy's socks, also edited on topics related to biochemistry. Please scroll through his edits to see more. The funny thing is that every single sock of Meowy desperately "fought" the claims that he was a sock and ironically at the end of the day, each one of those accounts were found to be his socks. That being said, I wholeheartedly support WGFinley's proposal to get both George Spurlin and Winterbliss on TBAN and see how genuine their intentions are on contributions to Wikipedia versus their immediate edit-warring on "battleground articles" right after accounts were created. I bet they won't withstand that test. See George Spurlin's continuous edit-warring despite the fact that the consensus was not reached on the talk page (Warned by WGFinley). The history of sockpuppeting by sock masters is too long to ignore: Hetoum I, Meowy, Xebulon, Andranikpasha, Paligun, Capasitor, Aram-van. What else is new? Tuscumbia (talk) 22:05, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Tuscumbia[edit]Comment by George Spurlin[edit]In my short interaction with Tuscumbia he showed zero effort to listen and reach a consensus. It was like talking to a wall. He definitely needs a break from editing, all that nationalistic anger can't be good for his health. --George Spurlin (talk) 11:09, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Ashot Arzumanyan[edit]I wanted to report Tuscumbia myself, but nowadays I am very busy out of WP, so this is a good chance to share a serious concern on this editor. One of his topic bans was for this comment: "Armenian authors ... are naturally biased ... because they dismiss any reference to anything good Turkish/Turkic." [71] However he recently came up with very identical statement: "... you, as usually go on giving credibility to the historian of Armenian heritage who is more likely to write in favor of Armenian majority, than those three (of Persian, Jewish, Swedish, etc heritage) who have no affiliation to Azerbaijan and thus wouldn't fake the demographic information in favor of Azerbaijani majority" [72]. I can't see any improvement though almost a year has passed. -- Ashot (talk) 16:01, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Marshal Bagramyan[edit]I've shared similar concerns about Tuscumbia and it should be noted that I had reported him earlier to the Arbitration page in October; for some inexplicable reason, the complaint was never followed up on, even though I re-listed it twice on this page (see, e.g., here). I don't want to dwell on that report but I would just like to address Tuscumbia's point on the alleged sockpuppets: regardless of how many of them spring up, he, as an established editor, should exercise restraint and be patient when working with other editors, even if they are suspected socks. Report them if you have enough evidence, but there is nothing compelling you to make those immediate reverts and thus no reason for you to be sucked into these edit wars that they initiate. I must reiterate, furthermore, that never have I used the ethnicity of an author to exclude them as a source. If one goes back to the discussion page of the article Tuscumbia keeps making reference to, they will notice how much I emphasize that the article must rely on the works of peer-reviewed scholars and academics, and not political scientists and individuals who are not experts in the fields they are working on.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 17:37, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
Comment by The Devil's Advocate[edit]Seems to me like the sockpuppetry allegations against the filer have some merit. Winterbliss is unusually familiar with the process. See this in light of this. Also, see these violations of WP:CANVASS: [73] [74].--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 18:16, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
Winter, according to SUL you registered at the Russian wiki after registering here.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 01:54, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
@WG Winterbliss has said he has a separate account for the Russian Wikipedia. Should he provide the name of that account an admin can check to see if it matches up. As for what other account Winter may be linked to, it seems Vandorenfm/Xebulon is the most likely candidate if Winterbliss is a sockpuppet account. Winterbliss has made a revert to Caucasian Albania, an article that had been a favored target of both the Vandorenfm and Xebulon accounts. In an SPI Winterbliss filed, not only is the editor who filed an AE request against Vandorenfm named as a sock with no supporting evidence, there are numerous references to the Amaras monastery article that Winter has no history of editing, but that Xebulon does. Vandorenfm, Xebulon, and Winterbliss all demonstrate this focus on Armenian monasteries in their edit histories.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 21:11, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
To Tuscumbia I do not want you to get the impression that finding your allegations against one or two editors to be of merit means I endorse your actual behavior on the articles above. Sockpuppetry by another editor is not some magic potion that gives you +5 sanction resistance. You appear to be using accusations like this as a bit of a shield here given that the reverts to Gülablı show no evidence of involving sockpuppets and most of the reverts to the Agdam bombing were of an established editor, not a sock. Also, sock or no sock, I do not find your contributions in the Murovdag article to be constructive. In deference to the fact that both sides have a stake in the dispute, you should not be insisting on only presenting the Azeri name for or the Azeri connection to a piece of territory subject to that dispute. The objection on the basis of sourcing is quite irrelevant. Armenians reside in that territory and claim it as their own, whether you like it or not, so the name they use for that territory should be included in the lede right next to the Azeri name. Edit-warring over that kind of change is a very serious problem. Should an editor with clean hands present this case here I would see plenty of cause for sanctions against you.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 00:38, 4 January 2012 (UTC) Result concerning Tuscumbia[edit]
|